[eggFL]

What? no

I was always a newschooler

Green Hill = antithesis of my Sonic likes

Just like I think it's bull that all Sonic does in Brawl is spindash, but I like everything else about him.

City Escape and Radical Highway are both good alternatives. Very Sonic-savvy AND more unique for Brawl since Brawl is apparently short on city stages. (Melee only had the crappy Earthbound-themed stage after all) Using Sonic for city stages is a win-win.

Flying Battery and Death Egg are good too since they're more "original" as choices and would just be cooler. They would both be great for remakes since after all when remade they would be like kickass newschool Sonic stages. But it should be Death Egg the stage in general, not the boss arena, since the boss arena was just a plain room. But the act 1 boss would be killer if you ask me. But as far as gravity stages go, I would prefer Hang Castle and imo the music would be perfect for the game as well.

If you ask me, instead of picking Green Hill they really should just pick Wave Ocean or Kingdom Valley. Although Kingdom Valley might get lost in all the castle-themed stages in Brawl it would still rule. White Acropolis would be fantastic but would clash with Snake's stage. I'd also think Flame Core and Crisis City would make good arenas. (all atmospheric like a Samus stage) Radical Train would be neat except then I think the only way that would work is if it was on a moving train, and that would kill it.

[Crowbar]

City Escape would be a shitty stage. It's a city. Whoop-de-fucking-do.  What the fuck would happen? Get hit by cars? Oh wow that was really awesome in Onett. It'd really represent the Sonic series in a unique way, wouldn't it? Because no other continuity for anything has ever taken place in a city with cars.

Anything from Sonic 06 can fuck off. As can anything from Sonic Heroes or Shadow. Having the franchise represented with such horrible games would be a slap in the face to those who actually like good things. Something from SA or SA2 might just be barely acceptable if they made the right choice (so not City Escape, for god's sake).

However, GHZ, for all you're going off on one about it SL, would make the most sense. Quite frankly, cities are not "Sonic-savvy". They just aren't. Sonic is a fucking five-foot walking blue hedgehog. He doesn't belong in a realistic city, or any realistic environment, for MANY different reasons, even if the recent shit games try to make it work otherwise (they fail in this respect, by the way). He belongs in the countryside, or some outlandish fantasy/sci-fi environment, preferably something unique that doesn't just meld invisibly into everything else in the genres (as the 3D games sometimes tend towards). Wing Fortress or Death Egg would be kind of cool, but only if we had a "natural environment" for Sonic in there as well, which would mean, yes, Green or possibly Emerald Hill. A casino level would be fine, too, since they're basically a tradition for Sonic. But Sonic's got to have his home turf represented. It just would not make sense not to, constant repitition of GHZ be damned.

[eggFL]

City Escape would be a shitty stage. It's a city. Whoop-de-fucking-do.  What the fuck would happen? Get hit by cars? Oh wow that was really awesome in Onett. It'd really represent the Sonic series in a unique way, wouldn't it? Because no other continuity for anything has ever taken place in a city with cars.

It would basically be the only city with cars in the game. As it is, fantasy settings are actually less unique. Think about it.

Anything from Sonic 06 can fuck off. As can anything from Sonic Heroes or Shadow. Having the franchise represented with such horrible games would be a slap in the face to those who actually like good things. Something from SA or SA2 might just be barely acceptable if they made the right choice (so not City Escape, for god's sake).

Quality of the games doesn't really matter here does it? We're not playing the games, just seeing stages from them. And the level themes from the newer Sonic games are cool too. I would rate Heroes and Sonic06 as having better level themes than SA2. The personality of SA2 is not quite as interesting as those games. Of course City Escape, being a wishy-washy city, still would be better for the game than Green Hill in my opinion. Especially as an adventure stage now that I think about it. I mean sure a battle stage it would be kinda clunky, but running down the streets and slopes would be too sweet.

However, GHZ, for all you're going off on one about it SL, would make the most sense. Quite frankly, cities are not "Sonic-savvy". They just aren't. Sonic is a fucking five-foot walking blue hedgehog. He doesn't belong in a realistic city, or any realistic environment, for MANY different reasons, even if the recent shit games try to make it work otherwise (they fail in this respect, by the way).

Sonic is a bit shorter than that. And just because he's a hedgehog doesn't mean he can't be around humans. It's really cool. It's just a different paradigm that what you have in mind. Sonic is a hipster mascot, not a furry.

But anyway, cities are what makes Sonic interesting now and what make him unique. And cities are more common now in Sonic than the Green Hill archetype.

Sonic represents that cities are glitzy, flashy, and fantastic. (a la Stardust Speedway, "Living in the City") Sonic is about making realism more dramatic and colorful. That's more important than random unrealistic videogame environments.

But whatever that's just my view. I mean Sonic never seems to get what he deserves. Sonic showed me a lot but apparently nobody over there in Sega thinks he should move forward or improve or is worth putting the least amount of effort into. I thought Sonic should be doing better than having Smash Bros be his biggest game in 2008. So it doesn't really make much difference what his stage will be, it's still Smash Bros either way, Nintendo's incoherent egotistical party game where characters go to stop being cool and triple jump and throw Pokemon at each other, since Sonic Team promised not to make 3D Sonics anymore, meanwhile Capcom snaps their fingers and arbitrarily decides to remake Bionic Commando which looks like a Sonic stage only 10 times better and 20 times larger than Crisis City, showing us just how futile the Megaman and Sonic fanbases are.

[Crowbar]

God fucking dammit egg I have had enough of your moronic bullshit. I've avoided responding to you for a while but since you're apparently now on a mission just to antagonise me I'm going to give you what you're asking for. I hope you appreciate it.

It would basically be the only city with cars in the game. As it is, fantasy settings are actually less unique. Think about it.

Okay, you obviously forgot about Onett from SSBM, but even if that isn't in this game, you're completely missing the bigger picture. Cities with cars feature in EVERYTHING. LITERALLY. They're not a fantasy environment, they're something we live in, and why would I want to have that in a game? In a fantastic (using the "fantasy" sense of the word here) context, why should I want to simply have my own real life replicated?

And sure, generic fantasy settings, derived from the Tolkein blueprint, are definitely no longer unique. But Sonic was not part of that back when he was actually good.

Quality of the games doesn't really matter here does it?

Yes it fucking does. The purpose of the Smash Brothers series, from the beginning, has been as a tribute to the old game franchises, a nostalgic matchmaking of characters that gamers (mostly just Nintendo gamers, of course) have grown up with. Nobody who actually likes good things and isn't a fucking deluded child like you wants to remember the worst aspects of their favourite characters, except possibly in an ironic way.

If all Mario's moves and environments were removed in Brawl and replaced with elements from Mario Is Missing, it would fucking SUCK. Because Mario is Missing was a TERRIBLE game, and to have the character represented in any significant way by it would be a horrible insult to him. By the same token, if Sonic were represented more by the crap 3D games that you masturbate so furiously over rather than the 2D ones, while I'm sure you and all your pubescent cohorts would be overjoyed, everybody who actually understands what Sonic was ABOUT in his better days, who actually played and valued games that were founded on distinctive visual design, coherent, non glitch-ridden gameplay mechanics, and plots that aren't trite teenage crap, would be rightfully upset.

Of course City Escape, being a wishy-washy city,

YOU'RE CONTRADICTING YOURSELF LIKE YOU ALWAYS FUCKING DO.

Sonic is a bit shorter than that.

WOOP-DE-FUCKING-DO.

And just because he's a hedgehog doesn't mean he can't be around humans. IT'S REALLY COOL. It's just a different paradigm that what you have in mind.

I've capitalised that one part because I want to draw your attention to it. You always fucking do this. Somebody says something is crap, as an initial statement. That's fine: a starting point for a debate need not be backed up initially. Its purpose is to invite a response, hopefully one that offers counterpoints to legitimately refute the claim, so that a proper debate can be continued from it. You don't do this. All you ever do to respond to "This is crap" is "No it's not, it's really cool".

Sonic is a hipster mascot, not a furry.

He IS a furry. A furry is a fucking walking talking animal, by definition. Ergo, Sonic is, always has been, and always will be a furry. And as such, his place is not among humans, at least not without some very well written and thematically significant reason for it being so ("he got teleported there lol" is not it, by the way). Why would a walking, talking hedgehog exist on a planet apparently populated mostly by humans like us? You could, of course, get something interesting out of this, but Sonic Team can't because they're incompetent cunts.

Having him among normal humans doesn't work from a design point of view, and this feeds back negatively on our ability to empathise with him. We want, as an audience, to believe in these characters with heads bigger than their bodies and saucer eyes. But as soon as you put them next to a realistic human, like what we see when we look in the mirror, they become ridiculous. If you were to play them as ridiculous that'd be fine, but Sonic Team doesn't. They still try to make them "serious" characters. But it's just not possible for anybody who isn't a deluded obsessive fan-moron to reconcile this discrepancy in the looks of the characters.

As a contrasting example, Watership Down is about talking rabbits with a political system. However, the characters are convincing because they are only ever shown that way, that is, from their own perspective. There are humans, but to their eyes the rabbits are just rabbits, which is also a believable perception. If the rabbits were to suddenly start talking to the humans the whole thing would fall to pieces. This is what is done in Sonic, and it's why Sega are going completely down the wrong ally with the way they've taken the series in the 3D games. No sane person can take drama seriously if it involves a talking blue hedgehog being kissed by what is, effectively, a real human girl (as the uproar from EVEN THE SERIES OWN ULTRA-DEDICATED FANBASE to this proves).

I'm stumbling over my own points a bit, because, of course, it's more complicated even than this (Ratatouille would be a good counter-example to take this discussion further), but I'm sure everyone who isn't egg will get my point.

But anyway, cities are what makes Sonic interesting now and what make him unique.

And here, again, with your TOTAL INABILITY to actually justify or backup your mindless claims.

I'll spell it out for you (again). Cities. Are. Generic. I want to point out in particular the word "generic", and its derivation from "genre". As Sonic takes place more and more in cities, it fits more and more into generic conventions, that is, those from standard filmic genres, or, to boil it down to just one, the genre of realism. This means that it incresingly DOES THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN DONE A MILLION TIMES BEFORE, AND HAVE BEEN BEING DONE ALMOST FOR AS LONG AS MOVING IMAGE HAS EXISTED.

In the Genesis days, it DEFINED a style. A style that existed in no other genre of anything. Green Hill Zone was like nothing that had been seen before at the time! Chequered hills! A horizon consisting entirely of mountains and waterfalls! Fantastic exaggerated perspective thanks to parallax scrolling! Sonic CD took this even further, with amazingly improbable colour schemes, Collision Chaos's upside-down horizon, Stardust Speedway's completely impossible perspective (one of the background layers scrolls faster than the foreground), and that's not even to mention the special stages!

Sonic CD is one of the most uniquely designed games ever made. And this is among the 16-bit platformer genre in general, so many other examples of which had visual languages completely their own (Mario, Treasure's games, etc. etc.). Sure, you could argue that design quirks like those featured in these games became generic convetions, but they belonged to their own genre, rather than a pre-existing one. However, this sadly did not become the blueprint for future titles. As good as Sonic 2 and S3&K were, they started going down a certain path that ALL games ended up following. Now, not just the 3D Sonic games, but all 3D games in general just look the same. They look like movies. Which themselves look like real-life.

[For a literary reference on this, check out Steven Poole's "Trigger Happy", specifically around page 218]

Realistic cities, objectively, categorically, une-fucking-quivocally, DO NOT MAKE SONIC UNIQUE, and your inability to see this is fucking INSANE.

Sonic represents that cities are glitzy, flashy, and fantastic. (a la Stardust Speedway, "Living in the City") Sonic is about making realism more dramatic and colorful. That's more important than random unrealistic videogame environments.

You just undermined your own argument. Stardust Speedway (as I pointed out above) is from a completely different mould to City Escape, Station Square, Westopolis, all the city environments from the 3D games. Yes, even though it was a city, it was dramatic and colourful.

BUT IT IS NOTHING LIKE ANY OF THE CITIES FROM THE 3D GAMES.

[Bilan]

Crowbar.

For you.

[eggFL]

Okay, you obviously forgot about Onett from SSBM, but even if that isn't in this game, you're completely missing the bigger picture. Cities with cars feature in EVERYTHING. LITERALLY. They're not a fantasy environment, they're something we live in, and why would I want to have that in a game? In a fantastic (using the "fantasy" sense of the word here) context, why should I want to simply have my own real life replicated?

Because Sonic does not replicate real life, it's better. Sonic is literally real life but more romanticized. "Fantasy" as we call it isn't good either. The whole point of fantasy is to be repetitive and fake and not gratifying. Fantasy is painting a picture, a shallow motif and repeating it throughout an entire product. Fantasy is making everything cartoony so it loses all appeal and impact.

City Escape is a relatively realistic environment but with Sonic it's not real life, it's "Escape from the City!"

If all Mario's moves and environments were removed in Brawl and replaced with elements from Mario Is Missing, it would fucking SUCK. Because Mario is Missing was a TERRIBLE game, and to have the character represented in any significant way by it would be a horrible insult to him. By the same token, if Sonic were represented more by the crap 3D games that you masturbate so furiously over rather than the 2D ones, while I'm sure you and all your pubescent cohorts would be overjoyed, everybody who actually understands what Sonic was ABOUT in his better days, who actually played and valued games that were founded on distinctive visual design, coherent, non glitch-ridden gameplay mechanics, and plots that aren't trite teenage crap, would be rightfully upset.

You're comparing Mario is Missing to 3D Sonic.... that's the problem. That's just an exaggeration. That's a biased comparison.

Anyway, Smash Bros continually has more newschool elements and Brawl is trying to be all mature and exotic compared to the last two. Shiek, Solid Snake, Zero Suit Samus, Wario, etc. I heard Mario has a water backpack. Why would we want a Sunshine reference? Is that old-school too? I don't see why newschool is off-limits. I was personally looking forward to more newschool Sonic in Brawl.

"Trite teenage crap" I take it you're talking about the handheld Sonics.

Sonic CAN BE trite crap. But it's supposed to be really stylized drama. Everything about the story is part of the style and the emotion that is so addicting. Yes it will be teenage-ish. That's the whole point. It's the whole emotional, melodramatic teenage motif but done with class and stylistical purpose. That's good because that allows it to be really emotionally charged and fantastic!

And just because he's a hedgehog doesn't mean he can't be around humans. IT'S REALLY COOL. It's just a different paradigm that what you have in mind.

I've capitalised that one part because I want to draw your attention to it. You always fucking do this. Somebody says something is crap, as an initial statement. That's fine: a starting point for a debate need not be backed up initially. Its purpose is to invite a response, hopefully one that offers counterpoints to legitimately refute the claim, so that a proper debate can be continued from it. You don't do this. All you ever do to respond to "This is crap" is "No it's not, it's really cool".

What's your point? If you all you can say is that it's crap, why would the burden be on me to go in more depth than you did? I just think you're being a hypocrite. And besides, I did explain it more, in case you haven't noticed "It's really cool" has a sentence before and after it. Like I was saying, you're not even thinking in the right box. If your only reason that Sonic can't be next to humans is because he isn't one, that isn't a very good reason. That's what makes Sonic so unique.

He IS a furry. A furry is a fucking walking talking animal, by definition. Ergo, Sonic is, always has been, and always will be a furry. And as such, his place is not among humans, at least not without some very well written and thematically significant reason for it being so ("he got teleported there lol" is not it, by the way). Why would a walking, talking hedgehog exist on a planet apparently populated mostly by humans like us? You could, of course, get something interesting out of this, but Sonic Team can't because they're incompetent cunts.

Too much exposition ruins a story. That's not the kind of story Sonic is supposed to be.

To make Sonic's existence alongside humans into a "well written and thematically significant reason" would I think very likely drag down the story too much and potentially ruin it.

Sonic is more of a "babies come from storks" series... not a "Minovsky fusion reactor" series.

You are completely ignoring what I said, to then go right back and say that Sonic is a furry and then say that he should be in a typical furdom for that reason. And you are totally thinking in the wrong paradigm.

Sonic has his stylized appearance and doesn't wear clothes outside of clean white gloves and brightly colored shoes. He has fantastic powers. He is a mascot. It also might be hypocritical for you to say you want outlandish environments but think it's too out there for Sonic to mingle with humans. It's not even unheard of, with characters like Ratchet, Jak, Mickey, Bugs, Roger Rabbit, Rocky & Bullwinkle, and Felix the Cat. Sonic is more like an anime superhero Felix or Mickey than anything.

Being another fur in a furdom is generic and melodramatic. Being a cartoon mascot in the real world is edgy and appealing. Not to mention classy.

Don't tell me you are an Archie/Satam fan too now.

Having him among normal humans doesn't work from a design point of view,

So you say! I guess being original doesn't work from a design point of view.

and this feeds back negatively on our ability to empathise with him. We want, as an audience, to believe in these characters with heads bigger than their bodies and saucer eyes. But as soon as you put them next to a realistic human, like what we see when we look in the mirror, they become ridiculous. If you were to play them as ridiculous that'd be fine, but Sonic Team doesn't. They still try to make them "serious" characters. But it's just not possible for anybody who isn't a deluded obsessive fan-moron to reconcile this discrepancy in the looks of the characters.

I understand what you mean but it's a matter of suspending your disbelief. And being rewarded.

If Sonic is a mascot then there's no wonder why he looks like a cartoon. And I don't see why you need to explain why toons are toons or why they exist any more than you would for any other animal in the universe. (Soleanna's beloved lost dog) Particularly since Sonic is not about that, not about exposition nor about racism, so it has no need to get into it. He's not a person who got this and this happened to him, touched a radioactive spider, and has whatever unlikely reason to be wearing tights and call himself a ridiculous name. He's just Sonic. That's elegant. Because Sonic is not about gratuitous exposition or a science fiction focused series, it's just about the energy.

When you have a naked cartoon blue hedgehog running around with white gloves and shiny shoes with flashy blue light trails around him as he saves a princess or whatever, I personally feel it should be pretty self-evident that Sonic is awesome and no further explanation is needed.

As a contrasting example, Watership Down is about talking rabbits with a political system. However, the characters are convincing because they are only ever shown that way, that is, from their own perspective. There are humans, but to their eyes the rabbits are just rabbits, which is also a believable perception. If the rabbits were to suddenly start talking to the humans the whole thing would fall to pieces. This is what is done in Sonic, and it's why Sega are going completely down the wrong ally with the way they've taken the series in the 3D games. No sane person can take drama seriously if it involves a talking blue hedgehog being kissed by what is, effectively, a real human girl (as the uproar from EVEN THE SERIES OWN ULTRA-DEDICATED FANBASE to this proves).

I'm stumbling over my own points a bit, because, of course, it's more complicated even than this (Ratatouille would be a good counter-example to take this discussion further), but I'm sure everyone who isn't egg will get my point.

Problem is you just compared Sonic to a book. Sonic is not a book! It has nothing to do with political/social commentary. Sonic is purely about attitude and personality, as shallow as you think that is and Sonic is. I love it.

Sonic does not have to be about a human discovering a talking hedgehog. Sonic may very well just be the world that exists many years after such a revelation.

You know it's kind of ironic that you want unrealistic environments but want realistic writing. Do you see how we are opposites? You appreciate surrealism in the physical game world but I appreciate the surrealism in an emotional sense.

I'll spell it out for you (again). Cities. Are. Generic. I want to point out in particular the word "generic", and its derivation from "genre". As Sonic takes place more and more in cities, it fits more and more into generic conventions, that is, those from standard filmic genres, or, to boil it down to just one, the genre of realism. This means that it incresingly DOES THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN DONE A MILLION TIMES BEFORE, AND HAVE BEEN BEING DONE ALMOST FOR AS LONG AS MOVING IMAGE HAS EXISTED.

That's just stretching it. "Fantasy" has been done a million times before too. Nature is as realistic as cities are. Coming up with something totally new and made up isn't what this is about. It's about a new context, a new angle. Having cities doesn't undo the way Sonic is very unlike most other games.

In the Genesis days, it DEFINED a style. A style that existed in no other genre of anything.

Just deco/surrealism, right?

Green Hill Zone was like nothing that had been seen before at the time! Chequered hills! A horizon consisting entirely of mountains and waterfalls! Fantastic exaggerated perspective thanks to parallax scrolling! Sonic CD took this even further, with amazingly improbable colour schemes, Collision Chaos's upside-down horizon, Stardust Speedway's completely impossible perspective (one of the background layers scrolls faster than the foreground), and that's not even to mention the special stages!

Sonic CD has a very distinct and beautiful style. But it would undoubtedly even better if it was in 3D and was made more realistic. It would be totally electrifying.

Also - perhaps part of the reason Sonic CD is cool because its stages, particularly Stardust Speedway, have the scope, the aesthetic excess and detail that you would have in realism and real-life cities. (although too much would overdo it)

Sonic CD is one of the most uniquely designed games ever made. And this is among the 16-bit platformer genre in general, so many other examples of which had visual languages completely their own (Mario, Treasure's games, etc. etc.). Sure, you could argue that design quirks like those featured in these games became generic convetions, but they belonged to their own genre, rather than a pre-existing one. However, this sadly did not become the blueprint for future titles. As good as Sonic 2 and S3&K were, they started going down a certain path that ALL games ended up following. Now, not just the 3D Sonic games, but all 3D games in general just look the same. They look like movies. Which themselves look like real-life.

Not all 3D games look alike nor do they have to. I can't help but think that's just a little shallow. Games are not going to rely on one-dimensional, flamboyant art directions to set themselves apart, at least not anymore.

Sonic generally looks much better and unique compared to many 3D games nowadays. Plagued by glare and poop-tinted high definition trash? Sonic has NONE of that. Sonic is much more colorful than other games. It's also one of the only, only games (no the entire series) to run at an impeccable framerate. Also putting out great original GAME MUSIC.

Don't you see? This is very important! You are saying it isn't just for tired reasons and elitism. But Sonic has always been outstanding and righteous.

Sonic represents the middle of weightless fantasy and bland realism, middle of Wii and Playstation 3, middle of horribly cheap budgets and exorbitant budgets (Sonic shows you don't need high budgets to make flashy, fulfilling games), of cheap graphics and superfluous detail. Sonic represents using all means only to be awesome and give us what we want, NOT following trends. (how could anyone possibly think that) The way gaming is going I am not going to find anything remotely like Sonic for a long time. With Sonic's death I may have to choose for the rest of my life between Pokemon or Halo if I want to play games.

Realistic cities, objectively, categorically, une-fucking-quivocally, DO NOT MAKE SONIC UNIQUE, and your inability to see this is fucking INSANE.

Would you think about gaming for a second. It would be the only city stage in Brawl, like I said. Think about what that means. Sonic treats cities differently than most games do. Family-oriented games tend to stay away from cities or cartoonize them to oblivion. Cities in mature games tend to be desolate and ugly, a cesspool for grit or a just an oversaturated backdrop for a driving course.

Sonic makes cities PRETTY. It's about shininess and bright lights and colors and cool architecture. Also Sonic is about turning cities into a rollercoaster-like playgrounds. I have a lot to say about how awesome that is but it for one thing, unique is not too far out there if you ask me.

SONIC NEEDS ROADS. What else is he going to run on. Halfpipe logs? That's cool every once in a while but come on. Sonic, Shadow, running on a winding road, that's righteous. You can't seriously say that any other game does anything like that. Yes it's unique if you're not being a literal, soulless, intellectual tart.

You just undermined your own argument. Stardust Speedway (as I pointed out above) is from a completely different mould to City Escape, Station Square, Westopolis, all the city environments from the 3D games. Yes, even though it was a city, it was dramatic and colourful.

BUT IT IS NOTHING LIKE ANY OF THE CITIES FROM THE 3D GAMES.

I believe it's much closer than you make it out to be. It's closer to the cities in the 3D games than it is compared to the cities from almost any other game series. The color, the music, the energy.

Sonic doesn't live or die by Sonic CD or Stardust Speedway. Sonic has had other great level themes besides that. Even ones that are more realistic. Realism does not take away from energy, it accentuates it. That's why you can make something as cool (or more) staying more down to earth. Radical Train, White Acropolis, Hang Castle, Pyramid Cave, and others, these stages are not worse than Stardust Speedway. Even when exploring a pyramid cave or chasing a human train I love the tone and attitude the stages are able to establish, not to say those stages aren't sexy too. And I only mentioned 3D stages. (I think someone else should argue 2D Sonic vs. 2D Sonics with you.)

[Crowbar]

Because Sonic does not replicate real life, it's better. Sonic is literally real life but more romanticized. "Fantasy" as we call it isn't good either. The whole point of fantasy is to be repetitive and fake and not gratifying. Fantasy is painting a picture, a shallow motif and repeating it throughout an entire product. Fantasy is making everything cartoony so it loses all appeal and impact.

What you're saying basically amounts to "anything invented is bad". Visionary artists throughout history weep at your short-sightedness, ignorance, and general idiocy..

You're comparing Mario is Missing to 3D Sonic.... that's the problem. That's just an exaggeration. That's a biased comparison.

I used it as an example of a bad game. The 3D Sonics are bad games, so the comparison is justified. The only difference, of course, is that Mario Is Missing was a one-off.

"Trite teenage crap" I take it you're talking about the handheld Sonics.

Nope! While I'm not completely familiar with SAdv2&3, I know enough about the handheld storylines to know that they're generally lighthearted enough to be tolerable. I'm talking about the kind of shit that Sonic 06 epitomised. Melodramatic, "edgy" garbage.

Sonic CAN BE trite crap. But it's supposed to be really stylized drama. Everything about the story is part of the style and the emotion that is so addicting. Yes it will be teenage-ish. That's the whole point. It's the whole emotional, melodramatic teenage motif but done with class and stylistical purpose. That's good because that allows it to be really emotionally charged and fantastic!

...what? Are you seriously this deluded?  You seriously think that Sonic is written that well, is that sophisticated?

And besides, I did explain it more, in case you haven't noticed "It's really cool" has a sentence before and after it. Like I was saying, you're not even thinking in the right box. If your only reason that Sonic can't be next to humans is because he isn't one, that isn't a very good reason. That's what makes Sonic so unique.

The first sentence is just the same statement, pretty much. As for the second...I'm aware it's a different paradigm.What I'm saying is that the paradigm you are imagining doesn't work.

Too much exposition ruins a story. That's not the kind of story Sonic is supposed to be.

To make Sonic's existence alongside humans into a "well written and thematically significant reason" would I think very likely drag down the story too much and potentially ruin it.

Correct. So either they bring it out for what it is: absurd (as I pointed out), and stop trying to make us take it seriously; or they stop putting him alongside humans.

However, it's amusing that you use the words "drag down" here, as that's what many would argue the overly serious tone is already doing.

You are completely ignoring what I said, to then go right back and say that Sonic is a furry and then say that he should be in a typical furdom for that reason. And you are totally thinking in the wrong paradigm.

Sonic has his stylized appearance and doesn't wear clothes outside of clean white gloves and brightly colored shoes. He has fantastic powers. He is a mascot. It also might be hypocritical for you to say you want outlandish environments but think it's too out there for Sonic to mingle with humans. It's not even unheard of, with characters like Ratchet, Jak, Mickey, Bugs, Roger Rabbit, Rocky & Bullwinkle, and Felix the Cat. Sonic is more like an anime superhero Felix or Mickey than anything.

This is so fucking rich. I'M the one doing the ignoring? You apparently completely missed my explanation of why serious, melodramatic storylines don't work in the context Sonic is put in these days, with humans, as, in the previous couple of quotes, you just blindly keep maintaining that it's "emotionally charged and fantastic!", and seem to think that there's no more to my reasoning than "Sonic is a furry so he should stick with furries".

There's nothing outlandish, per se, about him mixing with humans. I never said that was the problem with it. Again, you clearly didn't absorb that most crucial part of my post explaining the reasons it doesn't work.

And, again, you use completely inappropriate examples. Do you really think the "stories" of the Bugs Bunny cartoons are comparable to those in Sonic games? Are you that stupid? Those are the "absurd" instances I've been talking about where mixing humans and furries works!

And yes, Sonic is more like an anime superhero...but what does this have to do with whether he should be among humans or not?

Being another fur in a furdom is generic and melodramatic. Being a cartoon mascot in the real world is edgy and appealing. Not to mention classy.

Holy fuck. What the fuck is melodramatic about it? Seriously, what the fuck? And I can't believe you actually used the words "edgy" and "classy" like that with a straight face. I honestly have a hard time taking this paragraph seriously.

So you say! I guess being original doesn't work from a design point of view.

It's not original, since "characters like Ratchet, Jak, Mickey, Bugs, Roger Rabbit, Rocky & Bullwinkle, and Felix the Cat" have all done it before. And it's also highly amusing that you say this about originality given your apparent insistence that inventing things is bad.

I understand what you mean but it's a matter of suspending your disbelief. And being rewarded.

But that's the whole point...we can only suspend our disbelief so far. That's what I'm saying.

If Sonic is a mascot then there's no wonder why he looks like a cartoon. And I don't see why you need to explain why toons are toons or why they exist any more than you would for any other animal in the universe. (Soleanna's beloved lost dog) Particularly since Sonic is not about that, not about exposition nor about racism, so it has no need to get into it. He's not a person who got this and this happened to him, touched a radioactive spider, and has whatever unlikely reason to be wearing tights and call himself a ridiculous name. He's just Sonic. That's elegant. Because Sonic is not about gratuitous exposition or a science fiction focused series, it's just about the energy.

...so why does he need to be among humans and have his believability injured then? Why complicate his universe with beings whose design has nothing in common with his when he's a strong enough character to operate on his own terms? If what you said above is the case, what does put Sonic amongst humans do for him?

When you have a naked cartoon blue hedgehog running around with white gloves and shiny shoes with flashy blue light trails around him as he saves a princess or whatever, I personally feel it should be pretty self-evident that Sonic is awesome and no further explanation is needed.

...another paragraph I can't believe you expect to be taken seriously. Not to mention it's just nonsensical. What's your point here?

Problem is you just compared Sonic to a book. Sonic is not a book! It has nothing to do with political/social commentary. Sonic is purely about attitude and personality, as shallow as you think that is and Sonic is. I love it.

That doesn't invalidate the comparison. Again, you're missing the bigger picture.

You know it's kind of ironic that you want unrealistic environments but want realistic writing. Do you see how we are opposites? You appreciate surrealism in the physical game world but I appreciate the surrealism in an emotional sense.

I don't want "realistic writing". I want a convincing and consistent setting and writing that is consistent with that.

And there is no "emotional surrealism". You're seriously deluded if you think Sonic is that sophisticated.

Sonic is one of the only games that makes cities beautiful. Not just a cesspool for grit or an oversaturated driving course but it plays up the beauty of the colors and architecture. Stardust Speedway is a good example.

For once, you almost made a good point there. However, while some cities fit that description, there's a fair share of "cesspools for grit", too (Westopolis, Crisis City). And you then went and used Stardust Speedway as an example again...

Just deco/surrealism, right?

Okay, I'll concede that that's an accurate description. However, it's still something that allows for much more creativity and imagination than the direction modern games take. But you don't like that, do you?

Sonic generally looks much better and unique compared to many 3D games nowadays. Plagued by glare and poop-tinted high definition trash? Sonic has NONE of that. Sonic is much more colorful than other games.

It's still clearly from the same mould, however. It's really not that far distanced.

It's also one of the only, only games (no the entire series) to run at an impeccable framerate. Also putting out great original GAME MUSIC.

Don't you see? This is very important! You are saying it isn't just for tired reasons and elitism. But Sonic has always been outstanding and righteous.

...what? When did I say that music wasn't important? When did I even bring up music at all? And what does framerate have to do with visual design, the decision of what sort of world the games exist in and what sort of characters inhabit it?

And you really can't bring up something like that considering the unforgivable load times of Sonic06.

It would be the only city stage in Brawl, like I said.

* Crowbar bangs head on desk.

SONIC NEEDS ROADS. What else is he going to run on.

Anything else? He's not a car.

However, cities are rollercoasters, is, indeed rather unique and distinctive...but it makes no sense if we're to believe that these cities are inhabited by humans, and that they are to be taken as resembling cities we live in. You mentioned the idea of taking these normal things and making them fantastic...but then why are the residential portions of the cities so utterly pedestrian? It's like it's going for magic realism (e.g. 100 Years Of Solitude), only without any understanding of it.

Realism does not take away from energy, it accentuates it.

Okay, for all I have been mouthing off against it, yes, I acknowledge that realism can have positive aspects, and is certainly a valid storytelling genre...but, as I've gone to immense amounts of effort to make clear, it has no place in Sonic's universe as Sonic Team have been presenting it.

[P.P.A.]

Quite frankly, cities are not "Sonic-savvy". They just aren't. Sonic is a fucking five-foot walking blue hedgehog. He doesn't belong in a realistic city, or any realistic environment, for MANY different reasons, even if the recent shit games try to make it work otherwise (they fail in this respect, by the way).

I call BS here. Some of the city stages are my favourite ones - Spring Yard Zone, Tails' first stage in SA2 that I forgot the name of, or Stardust Speedway (although the latter is rather surreal).
And I really liked the realistic style of SA2. My second favourite right after Sonic CD's and Knuckles' Chaotix' colourful, surreal, psychedelic style. :(
Also if you didn't notice, half of the Zones in Sonic 1 have a realistic style too. Marble Zone (spare the outdoor background), Spring Yard Zone (more or less), Star Light Zone, and the first two Scrap Brains.

[eggFL]

OMG this topic was clipped and moved D=

omg omg

well here's my reply :x

I used it as an example of a bad game. The 3D Sonics are bad games, so the comparison is justified. The only difference, of course, is that Mario Is Missing was a one-off.

Sure, Mario is Missing is a bad game. But 3D Sonics aren't bad games. You just don't like them.

Nope! While I'm not completely familiar with SAdv2&3, I know enough about the handheld storylines to know that they're generally lighthearted enough to be tolerable. I'm talking about the kind of shit that Sonic 06 epitomised. Melodramatic, "edgy" garbage.

Because a worse story is o.k. as long as it's lighthearted right? I don't agree.

It's ok for a series to be a little campy! That's even considered good in some cases. It's totally worth it.

...what? Are you seriously this deluded?  You seriously think that Sonic is written that well, is that sophisticated?

It's probably better if it stays not sophisticated.

But that's what it has going for it. I just love the way Sonic characters are so enthusiastic. It's like an escape. All the characters are so intense and fun. "melodramatic" if you will.

Like I said, it may not always be good. In Sonic Heroes they are way too peppy. But Sonic characters can be really convincing. They should be. And when they are, it's just awesome.

Correct. So either they bring it out for what it is: absurd (as I pointed out), and stop trying to make us take it seriously; or they stop putting him alongside humans.

However, it's amusing that you use the words "drag down" here, as that's what many would argue the overly serious tone is already doing.

You're saying that a fantastic canon like Sonic can't have any weight to it. I wish less people thought that. I think more franchises like Sonic/Mario should be more serious and have cool stories.

Besides, Sonic does not have a "serious" tone per se. Serious implies something grim or uptight. The word I prefer to use is enthusiastic.

You want Sonic to lower its self-enthusiasm solely to be less pretentious.. so it can work better under that elitist principle. I don't agree with that.

Holy fuck. What the fuck is melodramatic about it? Seriously, what the fuck? And I can't believe you actually used the words "edgy" and "classy" like that with a straight face. I honestly have a hard time taking this paragraph seriously.

Mixing Sonic with humans infers a sense of upbeat-ness for the canon. That the Sonic world is not so uptight or scientific. It also shows to me some originality and creative tact.

The real reason anyone would put Sonic in a no-human world is simply for the sake of it. It would say to me that the writers are taking Sonic too seriously and just being stereotypical, and have no sense of flavor.

It's not original, since "characters like Ratchet, Jak, Mickey, Bugs, Roger Rabbit, Rocky & Bullwinkle, and Felix the Cat" have all done it before. And it's also highly amusing that you say this about originality given your apparent insistence that inventing things is bad.

You said that I said that inventing things is bad. But I said that it's not about inventing things, but being something in a totally new context or new paradigm. Seeing as you pointed out how Bugs Bunny and Sonic are different, that makes Sonic original, doesn't it!

I mean, why does Sonic have to be like Bugs Bunny?

...so why does he need to be among humans and have his believability injured then? Why complicate his universe with beings whose design has nothing in common with his when he's a strong enough character to operate on his own terms? If what you said above is the case, what does put Sonic amongst humans do for him?

Good observation. Well it's part of the setting. Sonic character design wouldn't hold up for a bunch of extras, so you have humans instead. This also makes Sonic more outstanding. And what's the point of Sonic operating on his own terms if he is alone in the universe? Putting humans in the backdrop makes Sonic a bigger badass as well as seem more powerful.

It's not really complicated if you ask me. It's breaking principle sure.

To go more into it, I think it's also about the mascot motif. A mascot would exist as an icon among humans. In a furdom, he wouldn't be a mascot, just a normal character in that world. Like if Superman was still on Krypton.

The superhero comparison really works here. Like superheros who don't have normal identities and always wear their superhero outfits, and do everyday things in it. Sounds like a janky world. That's why it's a lot of fun.

When you have a naked cartoon blue hedgehog running around with white gloves and shiny shoes with flashy blue light trails around him as he saves a princess or whatever, I personally feel it should be pretty self-evident that Sonic is awesome and no further explanation is needed.

...another paragraph I can't believe you expect to be taken seriously. Not to mention it's just nonsensical. What's your point here?

I'm saying, does everything really need to be explained? Would it really make a difference if they took a moment to explain where Sonic came from? How would they do it anyway. It would be completely out of place. A pretentious and asinine intro narrative.. what would it possibly say? "A world much like your own but with cartoon hedgehogs wearing nothing but gloves and boots running around" It's like other hack committee-made mascots to have their derivative Shrek shit worlds and idiotic stories and gratuitously-long intro movies for a game that doesn't even need (or barely otherwise has) a story.

SONIC IS BETTER THAN THAT. Sonic proved it's better than that. It's just not better than some things sadly.

That doesn't invalidate the comparison. Again, you're missing the bigger picture.

The bigger picture as you put it isn't relevant to any of this. Comparing Sonic to any book is preposterous. There is simply nothing to be proven from it. Books don't have audiovisual styles. They don't have soundtracks. They are not videogames.

And there is no "emotional surrealism". You're seriously deluded if you think Sonic is that sophisticated.

Come on was that actually so sophisticated? If I can think of it, is it really sophisticated?

When all I really did was say that Sonic characters' personalities as well as the tones set by the stages aren't realistic. (better than realistic clearly)

Would you Stardust Speedway is sophisticated, then?

For once, you almost made a good point there. However, while some cities fit that description, there's a fair share of "cesspools for grit", too (Westopolis, Crisis City). And you then went and used Stardust Speedway as an example again...

Crisis City is still awesome. Compare Crisis City to Gears of War. CC is just plain better. It's clean, gorgeous destruction.

By the way there is a thing I wanted to point about about Westopolis. Shadow was not the best design direction in the Sonic series but still I think Westopolis in particular is cool. But what Shadow showed us is that the Sonic world can change depending on the mood or tone of the stage or the game overall. This is why Sonic is interesting.. it's really rooted in atmosphere.

And you really can't bring up something like that considering the unforgivable load times of Sonic06.

What... of course I can. Besides.. Sonic always has good framerates.. few games do to the extent it does. But lots of games have long loading times.

Also - Sonic06 by no means needed those load times. But many games suffer in framerate because their graphics are too ambitious and would have to be toned down to be fixed.

Sonic sets a lot of examples. Some of them are simply technical, yes. All of them are very important either way.

SONIC NEEDS ROADS. What else is he going to run on.

Anything else? He's not a car.

omg, he's way better than a car. I'm saying that a Sonic game without a true city stage is a waste. Sonic was born to run on places cars would go among anywhere else. If he doesn't, he's not seeing his full potential.

I call BS here. Some of the city stages are my favourite ones - Spring Yard Zone, Tails' first stage in SA2 that I forgot the name of, or Stardust Speedway (although the latter is rather surreal).
And I really liked the realistic style of SA2. My second favourite right after Sonic CD's and Knuckles' Chaotix' colourful, surreal, psychedelic style. :(
Also if you didn't notice, half of the Zones in Sonic 1 have a realistic style too. Marble Zone (spare the outdoor background), Spring Yard Zone (more or less), Star Light Zone, and the first two Scrap Brains.

Spring Yard is pretty whack. But at times I have thought about how it would be updated in a new game. I was imagining a tacky suburban industrial feel combined with pseudo playground elements. At night/sunset - Brickwork, warehouses, neon lights, deco sculptures, and suspended caged passages from one building to another that are painted red. This is inspired by a building I saw in real life. 8|

[P.P.A.]

<3

[magnum12]

The stage that should be used should be the most well known stage from the BEST game in the series. To that extent, I think Stardust Speedway or maybe one of the iconic stages from S3&K. By that definition, stages from SA2 should not be considered since that game is far from the best game in the series (even though it does have awesome speed stages, the other stuff, treasure hunting in particular range from mediocre to outright horrible).

I think the real problem with Sonic + humans is the incompetence of Sonic Team. (See the failure that is Sonic 06.) It could work in thoery, but the haphazard way ST does it ruins the concept. If they want to make it more believible, at least draw everyone in the same art style (i.e. draw the humans in the same anime style Sonic and co are drawn in) and try not to be so serious/edgy. I am confident that the RPG could pull it off pretty well since Bioware is at the helm and they're known for excellent story telling and belivable world design. I just hope they'll make the game light-hearted/funny since this approach to a story is probably the best way to pull the furry+human shared world off. (As in a world shared by people and creatures like Sonic, so no naughty jokes.)

[P.P.A.]

I just hope they'll make the game light-hearted/funny since this approach to a story is probably the best way to pull the furry+human shared world off.

I'M NOT A FURR- oh wait that wasn't directed at me

[Bilan]

You did -not- just say that Crisis City looks better than Gears of War did you.

[Magnezone]

OMG this topic was clipped and moved D=

omg omg

well here's my reply :x

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Sure, Mario is Missing is a bad game. But 3D Sonics aren't bad games. You just don't like them.

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Because a worse story is o.k. as long as it's lighthearted right? I don't agree.

It's ok for a series to be a little campy! That's even considered good in some cases. It's totally worth it.

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HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

It's probably better if it stays not sophisticated.

But that's what it has going for it. I just love the way Sonic characters are so enthusiastic. It's like an escape. All the characters are so intense and fun. "melodramatic" if you will.

Like I said, it may not always be good. In Sonic Heroes they are way too peppy. But Sonic characters can be really convincing. They should be. And when they are, it's just awesome.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

You're saying that a fantastic canon like Sonic can't have any weight to it. I wish less people thought that. I think more franchises like Sonic/Mario should be more serious and have cool stories.

Besides, Sonic does not have a "serious" tone per se. Serious implies something grim or uptight. The word I prefer to use is enthusiastic.

You want Sonic to lower its self-enthusiasm solely to be less pretentious.. so it can work better under that elitist principle. I don't agree with that.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Mixing Sonic with humans infers a sense of upbeat-ness for the canon. That the Sonic world is not so uptight or scientific. It also shows to me some originality and creative tact.

The real reason anyone would put Sonic in a no-human world is simply for the sake of it. It would say to me that the writers are taking Sonic too seriously and just being stereotypical, and have no sense of flavor.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

You said that I said that inventing things is bad. But I said that it's not about inventing things, but being something in a totally new context or new paradigm. Seeing as you pointed out how Bugs Bunny and Sonic are different, that makes Sonic original, doesn't it!

I mean, why does Sonic have to be like Bugs Bunny?

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Good observation. Well it's part of the setting. Sonic character design wouldn't hold up for a bunch of extras, so you have humans instead. This also makes Sonic more outstanding. And what's the point of Sonic operating on his own terms if he is alone in the universe? Putting humans in the backdrop makes Sonic a bigger badass as well as seem more powerful.

It's not really complicated if you ask me. It's breaking principle sure.

To go more into it, I think it's also about the mascot motif. A mascot would exist as an icon among humans. In a furdom, he wouldn't be a mascot, just a normal character in that world. Like if Superman was still on Krypton.

The superhero comparison really works here. Like superheros who don't have normal identities and always wear their superhero outfits, and do everyday things in it. Sounds like a janky world. That's why it's a lot of fun.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

I'm saying, does everything really need to be explained? Would it really make a difference if they took a moment to explain where Sonic came from? How would they do it anyway. It would be completely out of place. A pretentious and asinine intro narrative.. what would it possibly say? "A world much like your own but with cartoon hedgehogs wearing nothing but gloves and boots running around" It's like other hack committee-made mascots to have their derivative Shrek shit worlds and idiotic stories and gratuitously-long intro movies for a game that doesn't even need (or barely otherwise has) a story.

SONIC IS BETTER THAN THAT. Sonic proved it's better than that. It's just not better than some things sadly.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

The bigger picture as you put it isn't relevant to any of this. Comparing Sonic to any book is preposterous. There is simply nothing to be proven from it. Books don't have audiovisual styles. They don't have soundtracks. They are not videogames.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Come on was that actually so sophisticated? If I can think of it, is it really sophisticated?

When all I really did was say that Sonic characters' personalities as well as the tones set by the stages aren't realistic. (better than realistic clearly)

Would you Stardust Speedway is sophisticated, then?

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Crisis City is still awesome. Compare Crisis City to Gears of War. CC is just plain better. It's clean, gorgeous destruction.

By the way there is a thing I wanted to point about about Westopolis. Shadow was not the best design direction in the Sonic series but still I think Westopolis in particular is cool. But what Shadow showed us is that the Sonic world can change depending on the mood or tone of the stage or the game overall. This is why Sonic is interesting.. it's really rooted in atmosphere.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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[Magnezone]

over post limit lololol

What... of course I can. Besides.. Sonic always has good framerates.. few games do to the extent it does. But lots of games have long loading times.

Also - Sonic06 by no means needed those load times. But many games suffer in framerate because their graphics are too ambitious and would have to be toned down to be fixed.

Sonic sets a lot of examples. Some of them are simply technical, yes. All of them are very important either way.

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omg, he's way better than a car. I'm saying that a Sonic game without a true city stage is a waste. Sonic was born to run on places cars would go among anywhere else. If he doesn't, he's not seeing his full potential.

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[Stefan]

Let me start by saying: Egg, why must you deliberately ignore logic, fact, evidence, and common sense? Why must you continually contradict yourself? Why must you make a poor argument using BIG WORDS in order to somehow convince people that CRISIS CITY should be in smash?

The number one flaw with your entire argument is that Smash is intended to represent the best characters from nintendo in the most iconic way possible. Characters are -ICONIC-. Paratroopa isn't in smash because he's not a main character in a great nintendo franchise. He's not iconic enough. Mario gets fireballs and a cape from smb and smw. He is iconic. When you think mario, that's what you think of. Older games, sm64, occasional puzzle games, some sunshine, etc. Mario's moveset is supposed to be iconic. His stages are all from WELL RECOGNIZED LEVELS in WELL RECOGNIZED GAMES that are good representatives of the Mario franchise. Mario is synonymous with SMB, as such there's a SMB level. Yoshi's most iconic appearance was in yoshi's island. there's a yoshi's island stage. It's an easy concept. Green Hill is sonic in all ways possible. It's his first level, it's UNIQUE (not only are hills covered in grass not fantasy, they aren't in other games). Sonic's most memorable level and most iconic place to be would CLEARLY be Green Hill. If you want to argue sonic 2's significance, you can make a case for emerald hill.

Because Sonic does not replicate real life, it's better. Sonic is literally real life but more romanticized. "Fantasy" as we call it isn't good either. The whole point of fantasy is to be repetitive and fake and not gratifying. Fantasy is painting a picture, a shallow motif and repeating it throughout an entire product. Fantasy is making everything cartoony so it loses all appeal and impact.

City Escape is a relatively realistic environment but with Sonic it's not real life, it's "Escape from the City!"

Sentence by sentence: Sonic doesn't replicate a "better real life", or it sure didn't in the first games. It doesn't seem to in the 3D games either. It seems to replicate real life in turmoil. The point of fantasy is not to be repetitive and fake, it's to be made up and engaging. Nobody makes fantasy settings with the ideal in their head that they'll make something repetitive! Remember, also, you said cartoony=bad right here. Oh, and SONIC'S IN REAL LIFE IN CITY ESCAPE. How is "escape from the city" not real life? It's doing a strange objective in real life, but it's real life? I don't see how you can possibly argue that running away from somebody to get out of a human-inhabited place is not realistic.

You're comparing Mario is Missing to 3D Sonic.... that's the problem. That's just an exaggeration. That's a biased comparison.

Ok, how about super mario sunshine? Can you base mario's moveset entirely off that? NO! It would still suck! It's not biased at -all- anymore, and the same thing's true. I'm as much of a 3d fan as you are, but 3d games would represent sonic horribly.

Anyway, Smash Bros continually has more newschool elements and Brawl is trying to be all mature and exotic compared to the last two.

Mature and exotic? You're calling a game where a playable character attacks by farting mature and exotic? A game where you slip on banana peels?

Shiek, Solid Snake, Zero Suit Samus, Wario, etc. I heard Mario has a water backpack. Why would we want a Sunshine reference? Is that old-school too? I don't see why newschool is off-limits. I was personally looking forward to more newschool Sonic in Brawl.

Not only is sheik NOT CONFIRMED IN THE SLIGHTEST, but she's from a game that's 9 years old. That's not newschool, mature, or exotic. Just because you can name CHARACTERS IN SMASH doesn't mean the game's new, mature, or exotic. Wario's an old character, snake' first nintendo appearance was even older, zamus first appeared in the 16 bit era. You also forgot to mention Pit, who's a very old nes character. Something doesn't quite tell me smash bros is intentionally becoming a new school game.

"Trite teenage crap" I take it you're talking about the handheld Sonics.

No, he's talking about the horrible storylines in new sonic games.

Sonic CAN BE trite crap. But it's supposed to be really stylized drama. Everything about the story is part of the style and the emotion that is so addicting. Yes it will be teenage-ish. That's the whole point.

Yes, we're well aware that it's teenagy. That's why crowbar mentioned it as such in the first place. The whole point is TRITE, TEENAGY STORYLINES SUCK. Making a real human kiss a blue hedgehog is NOT GOOD STORYLINE. ADMIT IT.

It's the whole emotional, melodramatic teenage motif but done with class and stylistical purpose. That's good because that allows it to be really emotionally charged and fantastic!

I'm referring back to this soon. Keep in mind all the language used here to indicate that the sonic storylines are deliberately written elaborately with much emotion, class, and style melded in. Aka a story with large amounts of exposition.

If your only reason that Sonic can't be next to humans is because he isn't one, that isn't a very good reason. That's what makes Sonic so unique.

Er, I could have sworn the reason sonic was unique was because he was a fast, cool hedgehog with attitude in an awesome game series. Certainly he was a great character back when he was only in 2d, and he sure wasn't unique THEN because he stood next to humans.

Too much exposition ruins a story. That's not the kind of story Sonic is supposed to be.

Remember all that language indicating an elaborate story is what sonic needs? yeah. Contradicted!

Sonic is more of a "babies come from storks" series... not a "Minovsky fusion reactor" series.

JOKING AHEAD:

Sonic is really more of a babies come from hedgehog-human love series, actually.

Being another fur in a furdom is generic and melodramatic. Being a cartoon mascot in the real world is edgy and appealing. Not to mention classy.

Remember that other time I asked you to remember egg's quote? The one about cartoony things being stupid? CONTRADICTED #2

So you say! I guess being original doesn't work from a design point of view.

Putting a videogame character in a human world is not only not original but actually UNORIGINAL. Why can you not see this? Every video game and its cousin takes place in a human world. Sonic doesn't stand out because he can copy!

I understand what you mean but it's a matter of suspending your disbelief. And being rewarded.

Nobody in their right mind recommends putting faith in sonic team.

If Sonic is a mascot then there's no wonder why he looks like a cartoon. And I don't see why you need to explain why toons are toons or why they exist any more than you would for any other animal in the universe. (Soleanna's beloved lost dog) Particularly since Sonic is not about that, not about exposition nor about racism, so it has no need to get into it. He's not a person who got this and this happened to him, touched a radioactive spider, and has whatever unlikely reason to be wearing tights and call himself a ridiculous name. He's just Sonic. That's elegant. Because Sonic is not about gratuitous exposition or a science fiction focused series, it's just about the energy.

Crowbar never advocated Sonic was a racist! Crowbar never advocated Sonic was a Spiderman. Crowbar never advocated that sonic have a science fiction background. He advocated that TRUE SONIC IS ABOUT THE FEEL, NOT ABOUT BEING IN A GENERIC CITY. You are putting words in his mouth. Crowbar just thinks a city is a poor representation of Sonic, WHICH IT IS. IT'S NOT ICONIC IN THE LEAST.

Problem is you just compared Sonic to a book. Sonic is not a book!

Obligatory ssr reference

It has nothing to do with political/social commentary. Sonic is purely about attitude and personality, as shallow as you think that is and Sonic is. I love it.

Crowbar loves sonic too, damnit. STOP MAKING HIM SEEM LIKE AN ANTI SONIC VILLAIN. Crowbar comes to TSC for a reason. He recognizes Sonic is awesome. He doesn't think Sonic's awesomeness is shallow, or he wouldn't be here. He's pointing to a legitimate example that talking animals in human worlds don't make sense. Making sense is the same in books and video games.

That's just stretching it. "Fantasy" has been done a million times before too. Nature is as realistic as cities are. Coming up with something totally new and made up isn't what this is about. It's about a new context, a new angle. Having cities doesn't undo the way Sonic is very unlike most other games.

GREEN HILL IS NOT FANTASY. GREEN HILL IS A MEADOW. CITIES. ARE. GENERIC. GREEN HILLS. ARE. NOT.

Don't you see? This is very important! You are saying it isn't just for tired reasons and elitism. But Sonic has always been outstanding and righteous.

It's an argument about city stages representing sonic. Not his virtues.

Sonic represents the middle of weightless fantasy and bland realism, middle of Wii and Playstation 3, middle of horribly cheap budgets and exorbitant budgets (Sonic shows you don't need high budgets to make flashy, fulfilling games), of cheap graphics and superfluous detail. Sonic represents using all means only to be awesome and give us what we want, NOT following trends. (how could anyone possibly think that) The way gaming is going I am not going to find anything remotely like Sonic for a long time. With Sonic's death I may have to choose for the rest of my life between Pokemon or Halo if I want to play games.

If you go ask 50 random people on the street, what they believe sonic the hedgehog represents, I don't believe any of them will say what you just said in the slightest. They will say "speedy platforming" or "colorful worlds" or "cool attitudes" or "rings" or "loops" or "super speed" or even maybe "green hill". Smash bros is trying to make the game a combination of all the most iconic characters with their iconic moves in iconic stages. I can't stress the word iconic enough. What you just described hardly applied to sonic back in the old day. BUT HE WAS STILL AN ICONIC CHARACTER. as such, the reason you provided as to why sonic's greatness can be applied to 3d games is INVALID because it doesn't fit 2d.

Would you think about gaming for a second. It would be the only city stage in Brawl, like I said. Think about what that means. Sonic treats cities differently than most games do. Family-oriented games tend to stay away from cities or cartoonize them to oblivion. Cities in mature games tend to be desolate and ugly, a cesspool for grit or a just an oversaturated backdrop for a driving course.

OH.
MY.

FREAKING.

LORD.

Do not make stupid assertions IN THE FACE OF EVIDENCE. You passed off an obviously incorrect statement as fact, even though it has no basis whatsoever. SSBM had ONETT. SSBM had FOURSIDE. SSBM had Mute (listen closely to this next freaking word) CITY.

If you played a single, small amount of melee you'd realize city levels are common. The "fact" that you try to pass off that there would be only one is entirely WRONG.


THE WORST, FREAKING PART IS THAT EVEN THOUGH, IN THE FACE OF EVIDENCE PROVIDED BY CROWBAR MULTIPLE TIMES (ONETT) YOU STILL STICK BY YOUR STUBBORN OPINION THAT HAS NO BASIS IN FACT WHATSO-FREAKING-EVER.

Let's say you just dismissed melee though, on the account that it's outdated information, and this is a thread about Brawl. If you knew the slightest bit about Brawl, which would definitely be a good thing considering it's THE GAME YOU'RE ARGUING ABOUT, you'd realize NEW PORK CITY and SMASHVILLE are in the freaking game. THOSE ARE CITIES. So's Delfino! There are already 3 confirmed cities in the game of super smash brothers brawl. WHY IN THE WORLD ARE YOU PASSING OFF THE FACT THAT THERE WOULD BE ONLY ONE CITY?

I think it's reasonable to infer you know nothing about Brawl, considering you use Sheik as an example and didn't recognize the fairly easy to see fact that there are already confirmed cities in Brawl. If this is true, WHY ARE YOU ARGUING ABOUT BRAWL? WHY? WHY ARE YOU IN A THREAD ABOUT A GAME YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT, ARGUING TO YOUR BRIM, MAKING UP STUPID, ILLOGICAL, IRRELEVANT POINTS, CONTRADICTING YOURSELF, AND TAKING EVERYTHING AS A PERSONAL INSULT?




Thank you, egg, for making me set a personal record for number of capitals used in a post.

[Bilan]

egg.

[Rick_242]

All you lose and SkyL wins.

[eggFL]

Yes, we're well aware that it's teenagy. That's why crowbar mentioned it as such in the first place. The whole point is TRITE, TEENAGY STORYLINES SUCK. Making a real human kiss a blue hedgehog is NOT GOOD STORYLINE. ADMIT IT.

You're wrong! It can be really great if done right.

The idea in itself of a girl kissing Sonic is supposed to be cute.

Sonic will live and die and making sure it keeps its stories cute and romantic. It will always be better than a random melodramatic fanfic because Sonic has taste. It does what it's doing on purpose while putting an upbeat or energetic spin on it all.

The emotions of teenagey stuff is fun and Sonic makes that context work.

Too much exposition ruins a story. That's not the kind of story Sonic is supposed to be.

Remember all that language indicating an elaborate story is what sonic needs? yeah. Contradicted!

Who's contradicted? It isn't me. Because I never said that Sonic should have an elaborate storyline.

The thing I am saying (and what Sonic showed me) is that nothing but energy and atmosphere matters. All other elements are just the means to that end. The actual story is merely part of the style.

Being another fur in a furdom is generic and melodramatic. Being a cartoon mascot in the real world is edgy and appealing. Not to mention classy.

Remember that other time I asked you to remember egg's quote? The one about cartoony things being stupid? CONTRADICTED #2

Look over your post it seems I didn't explicitly say that. You only put those words into my mouth.

The problem Sonic haters have is that they are not ok with Sonic being a cartoon. They want him to have a serious and scientific context in the human world (or non-human world). I just personally don't think that's in the spirit of the Sonic world.

I mean, as a mascot, that's by definition a cartoon. An icon in the human world. But the tone of the series is more enthusiastic and it's an action drama not a comedy. That's really fresh. And edgy.

Putting a videogame character in a human world is not only not original but actually UNORIGINAL. Why can you not see this? Every video game and its cousin takes place in a human world. Sonic doesn't stand out because he can copy!

That's a lie. Sonic doesn't count as just another game that takes place in the human world because Sonic himself is, duh, not human! This is exactly the reason he is so controversial as is apparent in this argument. And it's obviously that reason that he is unique for better or worse.

You clearly just making arbitrary arguments to contradict me and I think it's really annoying that you're trying to act superior to me.

I said it before. Sonic takes MASCOTDOM to the human world. That's entirely new and apparently so outlandish, as you have said. This is why I consider the Sonic series to be a hero. It's doing it and it's spinning the human world in a cool way. OTHER game franchises (and by that of course I particularly mean MASCOT franchises) would not use cities because using a city would be "bad design" for a cartoon, or just that cities apparently aren't interesting. Or their games are not about stealth recon, fighting terrorists, or beating hookers, so they apparently OBVIOUSLY wouldn't have any use for a city.

Nobody in their right mind recommends putting faith in sonic team.

Well not from a game development standpoint I guess not, as I've learned. But Sonic has shown me a lot. And it has consistently moved forward instead of going back on itself. (excluding perhaps the handheld titles) After all, even they made the slickest look Sonic, the best soundtrack, the best level themes, have continued using humans, and have stayed to the same gameplay style, story style, and never got into Sonic's origin or their existence in a scientific sense. (further leading me to believe, of course, that it is a deliberate stylistical choice as is many other things about the series) It's no fluke, is what I'm saying. And if it is, they should just change that and run with it. Because Sonic showed me greatness.

If Sonic is a fluke, it was clearly The Best Mistake Ever. (see, I can make references to literature too! I r smart)

Crowbar never advocated Sonic was a racist! Crowbar never advocated Sonic was a Spiderman. Crowbar never advocated that sonic have a science fiction background. He advocated that TRUE SONIC IS ABOUT THE FEEL, NOT ABOUT BEING IN A GENERIC CITY. You are putting words in his mouth. Crowbar just thinks a city is a poor representation of Sonic, WHICH IT IS. IT'S NOT ICONIC IN THE LEAST.

But isn't it? Sonic snowboarding on the city slopes and singing "Escape from the City". That's memorable and iconic. The distinct first stage of a top selling Sonic game.

OH.
MY.

FREAKING.

LORD.

Do not make stupid assertions IN THE FACE OF EVIDENCE. You passed off an obviously incorrect statement as fact, even though it has no basis whatsoever. SSBM had ONETT. SSBM had FOURSIDE. SSBM had Mute (listen closely to this next freaking word) CITY.

If you played a single, small amount of melee you'd realize city levels are common. The "fact" that you try to pass off that there would be only one is entirely WRONG.


THE WORST, FREAKING PART IS THAT EVEN THOUGH, IN THE FACE OF EVIDENCE PROVIDED BY CROWBAR MULTIPLE TIMES (ONETT) YOU STILL STICK BY YOUR STUBBORN OPINION THAT HAS NO BASIS IN FACT WHATSO-FREAKING-EVER.

Let's say you just dismissed melee though, on the account that it's outdated information, and this is a thread about Brawl. If you knew the slightest bit about Brawl, which would definitely be a good thing considering it's THE GAME YOU'RE ARGUING ABOUT, you'd realize NEW PORK CITY and SMASHVILLE are in the freaking game. THOSE ARE CITIES. So's Delfino! There are already 3 confirmed cities in the game of super smash brothers brawl. WHY IN THE WORLD ARE YOU PASSING OFF THE FACT THAT THERE WOULD BE ONLY ONE CITY?

I think it's reasonable to infer you know nothing about Brawl, considering you use Sheik as an example and didn't recognize the fairly easy to see fact that there are already confirmed cities in Brawl. If this is true, WHY ARE YOU ARGUING ABOUT BRAWL? WHY? WHY ARE YOU IN A THREAD ABOUT A GAME YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT, ARGUING TO YOUR BRIM, MAKING UP STUPID, ILLOGICAL, IRRELEVANT POINTS, CONTRADICTING YOURSELF, AND TAKING EVERYTHING AS A PERSONAL INSULT?

I owned Melee. I know everything about it.

You don't have to get upset just because I make style observations about the franchise. Brawl is digging deeper into more obscure characters from exotic serieses. A lot of these characters are barely iconic or deserving at all. Mario is just one character in the game. The graphics in Smash Bros are continually improved and made more realistic and are having characters now it would never have before, including Solid Snake who is from a non-Nintendo game but more significantly an M-rated game. From the more cartoony and kiddy feel of the original Smash Bros it's plain to see the direction the Smash Bros series has gone.

Just as a Sonic fan I thought it was a good opportunity to promote the flavor of new Sonic.

And your cities thing is a stretch. Delfino does not really count as a city for all intents and purposes, it's just a lame tree hut village. Mute City is less a city than a race course and that element consumes the flat city buildings in the background. The Earthbound stages only one of them was really a city (the night skyline) the other was a "town" but I'd think a Sonic city would still be much more serious and interesting than that one and with better music. And how many of those Melee stages are going to be in Brawl anyway? Delfino... pssh. And on top of it all, even for every city stage there is clearly going to be like 10 castle stages. The game is starving for city stages or at least stages that aren't castle/ruins. That's all I was saying. Sonic can help in this department.

[Crowbar]

There's no point replying to all those things in your last post individually, because they all have the same flaw. In fact, I realise now that almost all your points do.

You take it as a complete given that Sonic 06 is the most artful, mature, well-executed, and brilliant masterpiece of a game and game storyline ever. But it's not. You said before that "the 3D Sonics aren't bad games. You just don't like them." Look around you! A good few of us do! TheGHZ.com does! I'm pretty sure Cult does! A very notable portion of the fanbase that you'd have to be blind AND stupid to miss hates them! And guess what. Reviewers hate them too! And Sonic06, the one that you hold to these ridiculously high standards, is the most hated of all! The reviewers, of course, stick mainly to gameplay issues rather than ones of visual design and especially story and setting (though, looking through reviews now, a surprising number complain of bland environments, and where story is mentioned, it's almost always as a negative). However, a quick look around, here, above mentioned sites, and others, will reveal a good number of people who specifically dislike these aspects, too. And bear this in mind: if the design and plot elements you worship were really as great as you claim then more people would be prepared to look past the gameplay flaws (take Psychonauts: a top-selling game it was not, but it's got a respectable cult following and is generally regarded as a fantastic game despite a number of gameplay flaws, on account of its sheer originality of concept). It may not seem like a majority if you're looking around sites dedicated specifically to the fanbase, but bear in mind that most of those who visit these (I'm talking sites like Sonic HQ rather than GHZ and Cult) are the kind of mindless prepubescent idiots who'll lap up crap like Sonic06 whether or not it's actually good, because it appeals so blatantly to their age group (as I've said before). And even there I'm pretty sure you'll find a good number of "haters".

And even if this weren't the case, the fact remains that, among intelligent, mature people (which you claim to be; you make claims at being distanced from the preteen, fanfiction-writing crowd), YOU are the dissenting opinion, even though you try to claim otherwise. And you can claim what you like, but the fact of the matter is that we all do, actually, have reasons for what we think, rather than all just being mindless haters as you so often try to convince us. The fact of the matter is that quality will out, and if Sonic06 was quality then (intelligent) people other than you would think so. But they don't. Because it's awful.

What's truly sad is that I think you actually know that you're in the minority here, because the sheer blind zeal with which you try to defend your beliefs is something that only a desperate last-man-standing would ever resort to. You repeatedly make assertions that "It can be really great if done right!", "Sonic has taste", "Sonic characters can be really convincing", but you can't actually back them up. Oh, you try to LOOK as if you are, but all you're really doing is continuing to hold them as unshakable truths, even in the face of mountains of points against them. Ultimately all you're doing is taking them as axioms. They're not. They're the very points we're debating, and yet you can't seem to fathom that anybody would hold any differing opinion.

You're deluded and desperate, egg. You cling to your straw house in a manner that's rapidly going from profoundly frustrating to just pathetic. Give it up.

(This is the last I can post for a couple of days, since I'll be in Scotland. If this continues hopefully others can continue to pick up the slack, as stefan and SL very admirably did already)

[P.P.A.]

The idea in itself of a girl kissing Sonic is supposed to be cute.

Sonic x old-school Amy. Everything else fails hard.

Also SkyLights wins this topic and an internet or two.

[Stefan]

You said CARTOONY THINGS LOSE APPEAL. As such, you're putting a NEGATIVE CONNOTATION  on cartoony, and later consider cartoony to be GOOD. That's CONTRADICTORY.

You are still failing to argue my point. You are using "facts" to prove your idiotic point that a city stage would fit into brawl well, when in reality, YOUR FACTS ARE NOTHING MORE THAN UNBASED ASSUMPTIONS.


Now, being given evidence that totally disproves your "factual" point that a city would be "original', YOU STILL STAND BY YOUR CLAIM. You are still saying that a city would be a original. 10 Castle stages? We'll have.. Peach and Fire Emblem? Where are your outnumbering castle stages? Why are you using another INCORRECT FACT and passing it off as A LEGITIMATE POINT, despite being looked at dead on by CONTRARY EVIDENCE.

This is like me arguing that someone should lend me a couple bucks for lunch, my factual claim being that I only have 2 dollars and that won't get lunch. The problem with it is that earlier that day I'd shown my friend I had 7 dollars, and he remembered. The CONTRARY EVIDENCE says my "convincing factual argument" is a fallacy, so he won't lend me money because I don't need any. Despite his explaining thoroughly with me, I still stand by my assertion that my "two dollars" won't buy lunch. Then, when he refuses to lend it to me, I say I'm only trying to help food and argue some semantic like "but those 7 dollars aren't really 7 dollars because I want to buy something else". It's a stupid place to be in an argument, and it's stubborn idiocy for someone to stick by their fact in the face of evidence, then make an irrelevant argument when confronted about his attempt to pass off lies as facts about the "energy" of the food.

The problem is that you used incorrect facts, never backed down from them, and made irrelevant conclusions about me because I pointed them out.

It's STUPID.


Oh, right

You don't have to get upset just because I make style observations about the franchise. Brawl is digging deeper into more obscure characters from exotic serieses. A lot of these characters are barely iconic or deserving at all. Mario is just one character in the game. The graphics in Smash Bros are continually improved and made more realistic and are having characters now it would never have before, including Solid Snake who is from a non-Nintendo game but more significantly an M-rated game. From the shits'n'giggles feel of the original Smash Bros it's plain to see the direction the Smash Bros series has gone.

Iconic- characterized by fame: relating to or characteristic of somebody or something admired as an icon.

Wario is iconic in that he's wellknown as a mario rival in his own game series.

Snake is extremely iconic
Zamus is exotic, I guess. Pit maybe. Lucas, yeah.

Diddy's very wellknown. etc.

Snake's from a nintendo game, btw. so yeah.

[eggFL]

I never once made a claim than I am not the dissenting opinion. I know that I will always be the dissenting opinion. (at least in any intelligent community as well as every community I've ever been in) Why are you pointing this out? No.. more importantly... how could you possibly be under the impression that I wasn't aware of this?

I don't know why people tell me this as though I don't know. (and btw it's not as if I visit any Sonic sites besides this one) I know that. That's kind of why I promote the game in the first place. It's an exorbitantly cool game and the gameplay is rare in this day and age. It's extremely underrated. The haters and the reviewers don't appreciate that for.. well I can't say why but I can't help but think there is something fundamentally flawed with the way they review games. I have a lot of complaints about that and one of them is that they have no critical eye for style or at least they have one that is so horrendously off from mine. (or that they deliberately put no weight on this aspect of a game in order to be "true gamers") Because Sonic06 is "bland" but Kameo is "lavish and artistic". Sonic06 is a bad fanfic but other game stories are humored. Sonic looks ridiculous next to a human but Lara Croft is considered hot. I am so disgusted.

It's so easy to forget though that there ARE people who agree with me. And I'm really thankful for that for Sonic's sake and my own.

I think not everyone will change their opinion but some need to open their mind.

Someone replied to me at GT:

"Why do you hate the simpsons game. I believe it has potential. That's like saying SUNSHINE sucked. It wasn't SUPER MARIO 64 material but still a good game. What is this worse than HORSES or CATS?"

A decent point honestly. Like he was telling the possibility that even if Simpsons is overrated it's still good. He is essentially underrating my intelligence though but I should have no reason to be offended because really it's a good observation and after all I do the exact same thing to Sonic haters.

I mean just now I thought of comparing that to Sonic. Like, Sonic06 has so many problems. But so what? In the end it's still a totally adorable game.

And like, how you spin that is based on how much you value its style, or how biased you are against it based on Sonic's reputaiton or some other principle.

I'll talk about anything I said. My feelings for Sonic are real. I don't arbitrarily decide to like a franchise or not. I'll back up any of my opinions as much as I possibly could. You can accuse me instead of asking me if that's your style. Fine with me.

"It can be really great if done right!" Now how precisely is this even an axiom. it CAN, IF DONE RIGHT. Are you saying it wouldn't be great even if it was improved? That's impossible to disprove. And anyway, does a story have to be scientific and void of any emotions? Are the themes in Sonic games including love too cheesy nowadays to be used at all in a non-sarcastic tone?

"Sonic has taste" Sonic is compared to bad fanfics but I am saying Sonic is actually better than that because Sonic does it in an upbeat context, in an energetic, almost parodical context, and in a family-friendly mascot context. It's clean fun you don't have to take it seriously. Personally I don't see how Shadow the Hedgehog (when he was first introduced) isn't totally fucking brilliant off the heels of Sonic Adventure 1. People say Shadow is bad because he is a cliche, I say he's great for exactly that reason. But it's more than just a matter of opinion right? You have your overwhelming evidence that makes me a crazy person! Your evidence is solely a principle. Basically an axiom.

People say cliches are bad but Sonic taught me that cliches are totally irrelevant. In fact using cliches or using elements like these strategically can be fun or have cool results. All of this school is purely the means to an end. And that end is to have the most fun and experience total coolness. I mean why should it be anything but? Why systematically create a "well designed story" when you can strategically create the coolest thing ever by breaking all the rules even if people insist it's bad for no real reason.

"Sonic characters can be really convincing" I don't believe I ever said that. In which case, why would you put those words in my mouth.. well nevermind whatever. First of all emphasis on "can". All I actually said was that I want them to be portrayed in a way that's increasingly more convincing than past games. If they can be as convincing as possible, it would make me very happy.

And what about Psychonauts. Did you even play Psychonauts? Forgive me for having to ask. That game is mediocre crap. Reason people totally adore it is because it's lolfunny. (see also: Simpsons game hype. Only that may be called out for what it is since it's a licensed game as opposed to a Tim Schafer game! and therefore way down on the hipness radar) But to call it original? Are those your words or a reviewer's? Because that's an utter lie. Being funny does not make a game "original in concept".

Game reviewers are another big issue of mine. I don't know why people keep pointing out to me that the reviewers hate Sonic (because I know that) even though reviewers in general shouldn't be supported. It's also highly ignored that there are some reviewers who gave good scores to Sonic games, and that supports my view.

You take it as a complete given that Sonic 06 is the most artful, mature, well-considered, and brilliant game and game storyline ever.

I never said those things. But the words you put in my mouth say a lot I think I just realized, as well with the condescending and presumptious tone you've been replying to me with. You're a pseudo-intellectual, right? You're implying that you think I like Sonic because I think it's sophisticated. You are implying that there would be no other reason to like something, because how sophisticated something is is apparently the sole measure of how "good" it is or not. But I don't like Sonic for being sophisticated (and please remember, I never once said it was) I like it because it's FUN and COOL. (extremely cool) And it's not afraid to be fun and cool or have its own sense of beauty despite many jackasses not unlike yourselves who believe that being fun or cool, is not very intellectual. It's not "good design". And that Sonic should recede in spinoff games and shitty handheld titles with no feel even there, and never amount to anything, and never make us happy. But they are well designed in that they don't try.

Trite teenage crap is what the handhelds are more like because of their arbitrary emotional plugs in a decadent game. "I am afraid of heights"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ6yCh0SCvA

^ but that? I see cinematic, glorious camp! It's not rocket science! I'm not trying to overcomplicate this. It's just that Sonic kicks ass so much. And as far as plots are concerned at least 3D Sonic tries to be somewhat cohesive and interesting.

The idea in itself of a girl kissing Sonic is supposed to be cute.

Sonic x old-school Amy. Everything else fails hard.

Also SkyLights wins this topic and an internet or two.

What I think is weird is that Sonic x Elise is made fun of for being "furry" even though Sonic x Amy isn't. Totally ironic.

Anyway Sonic kissing a girl signifies something about the Sonic world if you ask me. That the series is in such a fanciful tone that it would allow it to happen. And not be totally weird about it either.

Though I still don't in any way like how that scene overall was handled, for the record.

[Magnezone]

So why are you doing this to me if you're a jackass hater who doesn't even care about Sonic Adventure series and even put the classic games in a negative light?

God fucking dammit egg I have had enough of your moronic bullshit. I've avoided responding to you for a while but since you're apparently now on a mission just to antagonise me I'm going to give you what you're asking for. I hope you appreciate it.

Egg, you need to realize that this is always how it always starts.

• Someone posts that, apparently, has a different opinion than you do.
• You appear hell-bent on establishing your opinion as the more meaningful one, AKA, pissing someone off.
• The person gets to the point where they'll make a rather large post to argue against yours.
• You retaliate by:
         -Rambling about tiny segments of their argument in your mission to prove them wrong
                     (sonic being 5 feet tall, game reviewers, whether or not sonic 06 is good)
         -Missing the main point
                     (sonic needs the sort of representation in brawl that serves as a testament to his greatest appearances)
                                     (infact your last post had nothing to do with the main argument)
         -ITS JUST COOL
                     (this is not an argument)
• As opposed to:
         -Combating their main point head-on
         -Adding your own supporting details to help prove it
                     (actual reasons that are not "ITS COOL MAN")

This is, essentially, why you are extremely annoying to argue with. You don't know the logistics of how to argue, and it comes off as "a mission to antagonize."

[eggFL]

Why do I do this to myself. Setting myself up for anxiety and wondering if my posts are too rough and editing them, and coming in here to take the retaliation and insults and have people tell me and how stupid or poorly concocted my posts are. I am miserable doing this sometimes.

Why do I have to be isolated and lied to just for thinking for myself and for liking a good thing.

I'm sorry but I'm just trying my best. I just don't know what you guys want.

You said CARTOONY THINGS LOSE APPEAL. As such, you're putting a NEGATIVE CONNOTATION  on cartoony, and later consider cartoony to be GOOD. That's CONTRADICTORY.

It's a simple concept. Being cartoony can be fun & cool. But too cartoony is a bad thing.

Plus I never said Sonic is cartoony but only pointing out that he is essentially a cartoon character.

What a typical shit mascot would do is be a cartoon character solely on principle. Like, you would basically never have platform character that is human or realistic in any way because it's not how the stereotype goes and therefore it's completely beyond the minds of creators to make one like that. They are still trying to copy Sonic in a literal sense with anthro characters like Crash or Spyro. But Sonic does not conform to design ideas like that, it made up its own. All these franchises typically copy Shrek for style and setting. But what Sonic is not afraid to do is actually be, you know, appealing, especially to the teen/tween crowd. Sonic single handedly deserves it's success. Other franchises are made to fit in to the scheme.

Even Mario is less cartoony than the wannabes. Sonic and Mario are pretty much the same cartoony in a physical sense.

The problem is that you used incorrect facts, never backed down from them, and made irrelevant conclusions about me because I pointed them out.

It's STUPID.

No I'll tell you what's stupid. This whole idiotic fascist elitist intellectual superficial double standard vendetta against Sonic and the blind eye to everything wonderful about it just because it does something different and because the fanbase is hated or for a few dumb flaws like voice acting or teenagey plots which is the whole identity of the series now or a couple of less-than-stellar games like Shadow that somehow become the face of the entire damn franchise.

I don't see what's so challenging to appreciate the least about Sonic or Sonic06. Great level themes, great game music, and cool-looking characters to play as. Or are you saying that just isn't important. Which is it?

These are the very elements of 3D Sonic if nothing else that's something to be proud of that at least deserves to be carried over to Brawl. That doesn't even mean you have to bring in Shadow or any elements of story. (because I mean therein the beauty of Smash Bros doesnt it guys?)

Iconic- characterized by fame: relating to or characteristic of somebody or something admired as an icon.

Wario is iconic in that he's wellknown as a mario rival in his own game series.

Snake is extremely iconic
Zamus is exotic, I guess. Pit maybe. Lucas, yeah.

Diddy's very wellknown. etc.

Snake's from a nintendo game, btw. so yeah.

Sonic is iconic too. And I mean new Sonic, grinding in city streets Sonic. So aren't you a hypocrite?

Probably more well known than Diddy and definitely more than like Lucas or Pit. (except that Pit is really old, so that's "iconic-like")

Saying new Sonic or new Sonic elements aren't worthy of being in Brawl for reasons like it being not iconic or popular enough is a complete lie.

You may not like it, but that in no ways means it shouldn't be in Brawl and it certainly doesn't mean it would be out of place.

But you're not arguing about what you would or wouldn't like to see in Brawl, as I initially was. Because doing that would place my opinion equal to yours but that won't stand will it? Better coming up with arbitrary principles that are biased against Sonic. (or aren't even but you spin it that way) And insulting me and making accusations and making me sound like a pathetic person.

Let me know. I'm ready to take your apology.

So why are you doing this to me if you're a jackass hater who doesn't even care about Sonic Adventure series and even put the classic games in a negative light?

God fucking dammit egg I have had enough of your moronic bullshit. I've avoided responding to you for a while but since you're apparently now on a mission just to antagonise me I'm going to give you what you're asking for. I hope you appreciate it.

Egg, you need to realize that this is always how it always starts.

• Someone posts that, apparently, has a different opinion than you do.
• You appear hell-bent on establishing your opinion as the more meaningful one, AKA, pissing someone off.
• The person gets to the point where they'll make a rather large post to argue against yours.
• You retaliate by:
         -Rambling about tiny segments of their argument in your mission to prove them wrong
                     (sonic being 5 feet tall, game reviewers, whether or not sonic 06 is good)
         -Missing the main point
                     (sonic needs the sort of representation in brawl that serves as a testament to his greatest appearances)
                                     (infact your last post had nothing to do with the main argument)
         -ITS JUST COOL
                     (this is not an argument)
• As opposed to:
         -Combating their main point head-on
         -Adding your own supporting details to help prove it
                     (actual reasons that are not "ITS COOL MAN")

This is, essentially, why you are extremely annoying to argue with. You don't know the logistics of how to argue, and it comes off as "a mission to antagonize."

But aren't you lying to me and just spinning this against me because I'm not a Sonic hater.

Those quotes are taken out of context. Crowbar said that of course long before I called him a jackass hater and he was the first one to say that my posts were "moronic bullshit" or that I masturbate furiously to Sonic or once saying that anyone who says something good about Sonic06 is a faggot. And he is the one who insists that Sonic has no value outside of Sonic CD.

Why am I the bad guy just because I have a less popular opinion.

And why I am accused of sidestepping. I never do that. I always talk about Sonic in a Sonic debate as much as possible. Everyone else talks about facts or principles, or reviewers, or axioms or what have you. Like I said I always back up what I say and I just did. But you don't reply to that either.

And what's this about "IT'S COOL" not being a valid argument. How it being the only argument that should matter. "it's cool" should be a far more compelling reason than "it's not good design"

There's nothing trite or trashy about Radical Train or White Acropolis. There are gorgeous, flavorful stages. or are you saying that you disagree? Or do you just want to make more accusations and insult me more?

I don't what else to say. I don't know what you guys want from me. I'm talking about why I love Sonic and this all really started actually for my opinions on what stage should be in Brawl and now you're saying such terrible things about me or that I'm blind or whatever. Thanks a lot.

Oh and another observation I made: Crowbar was saying how Sonic required a well-written and thematically significant reason to be in the human world and all that jazz. But I remember something, and that is that's what Sonic X did. Do I need to say more? I will though:

Sonic X is utter shit.

I will keep going forever since it's never that easy for me: Sonic X's first five million episodes were dredged in the whole hiding-in-Chris's-house-like a-bunch-of-fags routine and act like limp dolls in public and the whole controversy and plots about Sonic being accepted in the human world. And if that isn't bad enough the series later then goes into Sonic's home world and into a horrible direction for the series.

What should be plain here is that coming up for a reason and presenting that reason for Sonic's orientation into the human world (solely for principle mind you) forces a story to start off terribly slow and leads into elements that are outside the point of the series - Cool characters in the HUMAN WORLD in visceral environments driven by flavor and personality right down to the style of storytelling.

Also another theory I had was that if Sonic was human, then it would have to be explained why he has powers whereas most humans don't. But as a cartoon it just means less has to be explained, more can taken as self-evident, and the series is more focused and cleaner as a result.

"OMG you think Sonic is that sophisticated? you deluded jackass!" Why?? It's all there in the source material. Open your eyes and maybe you wouldn't hate Sonic so much. I'm just saying maybe. I think haters are the ones seeing something that isn't there, not me. That's what I'm trying to say.

More stuff:

This is Sonic in the human world in 1991:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sanDKtG9ja8

This is Sonic hanging from a gorgeous clock tower in a "generic" city in 1991:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qHY3szBlbo

^ the latter being a vision I would have loved to see realized in a next gen Sonic but apparently nobody would think that's good, and for believing otherwise I'm desperatley clinging to an axiom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI1sM2R0GXU
^ Does the city in the beginning of this trailer represent something generic? Would you say this motif isn't beautiful or something like it isn't worthy at all of being in Brawl because it's too realistic?

[Magnezone]

But aren't you lying to me and just spinning this against me because I'm not a Sonic hater.

No, I'm tired of seeing these stupid arguments and am attempting to get them to stop.

Those quotes are taken out of context.

Out of context? Pardon me, but you're asking why Crowbar was doing this to you, and it just so happened that Crowbar already answered that in a paragraph that was quite separate from the rest of his post.

And why I am accused of sidestepping. I never do that.

I'm not accusing you of avoiding the main idea, I'm accusing you of being oblivious to it.

I always talk about Sonic in a Sonic debate as much as possible. Everyone else talks about facts or principles, or reviewers, or axioms or what have you. Like I said I always back up what I say and I just did. But you don't reply to that either.

Because most of the time, it's not relevant to the point that's trying to be proven.

And what's this about "IT'S COOL" not being a valid argument.

Because "ITS COOL" is not an argument; it's an opinion. An argument is persuasive, and "ITS COOL" is not a convincing statement for a reader and infact, has the opposite effect, where they tend to believe you less. What if they already think "IT SUCKS"? You would immediately become a less credible source of sense.

There's nothing trite or trashy about Radical Train or White Acropolis. There are gorgeous, flavorful stages. or are you saying that you disagree? Or do you just want to make more accusations and insult me more?

This has nothing to do with what I said, and as such I'm not sure why you put it in the partition of your post that was intended as a reply to mine.

I don't what else to say. I don't know what you guys want from me or. I'm talking about why I love Sonic and this all really started actually for my opinions on what stage should be in Brawl and now you're saying such terrible things about me or that I'm blind or whatever. Thanks a lot.

Are you really this clueless? I'm pretty sure I spelled it out for you good before. Apparently though, you decided to pick that apart too and respond almost to every single line instead of looking at it more broadly, and I'm not quite creative enough to put that entire bulleted list into a single sentence, so I guess, once again, it has been a futile attempt to help you understand anything with my criticism.

[Zeupar]

<3

<3

[eggFL]

That's really cool Zuepar. Really quite cool. :O Thanks for posting those.

No, I'm tired of seeing these stupid arguments and am attempting to get them to stop.

I am the dissenting opinion here as is established. I know that everyone around me hates 3D Sonic. When people dis a 3D Sonic I may not even bother to contradict them because it's just pointless. But if everyone is going to be aggressive to me every time I do state my opinion and if my opinion can't be respected then this will keep happening. I'm not going to stand down just because you can't accept what I think.

This topic started when I stated my opinion and Crowbar snapped.

I'm not accusing you of avoiding the main idea, I'm accusing you of being oblivious to it.

Oblivious to what, Smash Bros Brawl? I don't even really care about Smash Bros. This isn't to me about what should go in Smash Bros but about Sonic. The idea that new Sonic shouldn't be in Smash bros only because you insist that it's awful.

It WAS about Smash Bros until Crowbar began on a hate trip and insulted me personally.

I mean that's not even normal. Why do I have to be isolated and brought into this situation and be on trial againt all of you just because of one jerk who thinks Sonic sucks just because it's not Stardust Speedway?

It WAS about Smash Bros until it went from what stage would be a good representation of Sonic in Brawl to whether or not Sonic has become utter shit in general. If you didn't see that, why am I the oblivious one? That's pretty dumb to me.

I always talk about Sonic in a Sonic debate as much as possible. Everyone else talks about facts or principles, or reviewers, or axioms or what have you. Like I said I always back up what I say and I just did. But you don't reply to that either.

Because most of the time, it's not relevant to the point that's trying to be proven.

And what point would that be? That I'm a dumbass? I am obviously going to be trying to make a different point than you are. Otherwise why would we be arguing in the first place.

Because "ITS COOL" is not an argument; it's an opinion. An argument is persuasive, and "ITS COOL" is not a convincing statement for a reader and infact, has the opposite effect, where they tend to believe you less. What if they already think "IT SUCKS"? You would immediately become a less credible source of sense.

I am never reluctant to explain why I think Sonic is cool.

This has nothing to do with what I said, and as such I'm not sure why you put it in the partition of your post that was intended as a reply to mine.

Are you really this clueless? I'm pretty sure I spelled it out for you good before. Apparently though, you decided to pick that apart too and respond almost to every single line instead of looking at it more broadly, and I'm not quite creative enough to put that entire bulleted list into a single sentence, so I guess, once again, it has been a futile attempt to help you understand anything with my criticism.

I replied to your post as a whole. In any case please stop being anal about this kthx

(also I'm wondering if you're trying to be ironic by quoting every sentence in my post... even though I didn't)

[General Throatstomper]

WARNING: CHALLENGER APPROACHES

genus

With a smirk and a dash of infallible wit, the trickster genus enters the fray! Genus forces points home in a unique way, one we're very happy to implement. First genus launches an attack...then genus lets the opponent rush for an attack...and then finishes them with a powerful blow! You don't want to get caught in this trap.

That having been said, there's so much to respond to. After quite a few posts which I won't bother crosschecking, allow me to put forth what may be an unwanted word. I do not intend to mitigate this dispute, or instigate it either. So I'm another middleman. Hum-ho.

I'll intentionally overlook things from both sides, because you can't very well expect me to point out every superficial mistake. I don't think a point-by-point addressing of the issues will work here. At this point everyone's so locked in to what they believe that honestly, what is another rebuttal going to do? Aside from invoke another rebuttal.

This first part here, this is for Egg. This isn't you against the world. You have an opinion, which you haven't done too good of a job defending. You may think you have, but in all honesty you're just going on some givens and have been repeating the same few points for quite some time. Make a table with the words 'melodramatic, teenage, cartoon, realistic, stylistic, awesome, cool, steroids, razor, battery, shit, elements, intellectual, kiss, edgy, hater' and every time you see you say when of those words, add a tally mark. Some of these won't tally at all. Use those words more. The others you'll see build up. Use those words less. Basically, you're not introducing new ideas into this argument and failing to facilitate any new discussion so much as beating a poor few to death. You don't want to have to dispose of what amounts to 5 corpses, do you? Add something new. You're assuming everyone is missing the point, when they aren't. Or even if they are, move on because saying it again and again and again isn't going to make them get it. It seems like you're treating this as a soapbox more than anything else-a chance to plug an idea instead of to defend it. Don't use semantics to get your point across, because they don't really work. You spend more time bashing other thoughts than you do fronting new ones.

So anyways, you have an opinion. But just because nobody agrees with you doesn't mean they don't like you as a person. Except for Crowbar. I think we all agree that if nothing else, that Radical Train strip you drew is the defining comic to date. So obviously you're not entirely terrible, and people do see some value in your existance.

This next part, right here? This is for everyone else. If you consider egg inept and incapable of logical thinking, why dignify him with proper responses? He might get under your skin sure, but I don't see tscers raging on random gamefaqs users. Choose to ignore him if egg yokes (do you get the pun?) your primal instinct to walk up to someone and bludgeon them to death. I know I may not be the best person to talk here since I do get in quite a few scuffles, but it's not as though I do anything more than a one-dimensional assault on their character. You're all getting intense, rebuking everything he says. The way you word it, you'd think he was so far gone to be unable to process information. If Egg made the most coherent point and defined a universal truth more compellingly than you could ever imagine right now, you'd all ignore it.

You know, I could have used specific examples. But why? I'm speaking in general terms at the moment because that's the most succint way of responding to something. If you want proof, I could cull a moundful for you to debunk in series. Just not right now.

Point for Egg: if a game had all the right aesthetic and atmosphere but has poor gameplay, would you defend it with as much zeal as you have done with '06?

Point for not Egg: if someone responds to your idea in an entirely incoherent fashion, do you continue in your attempt to persuade them they are wrong?

As Devil's Advocate, I do proclaim...

GAME!

[eggFL]

Point for Egg: if a game had all the right aesthetic and atmosphere but has poor gameplay, would you defend it with as much zeal as you have done with '06?

It's cool and all that you're posting in this and being all genus-y and stuff (and interesting tally chart idea, I'll get on that >_>) but I'm not really compelled to answer, sorry.

Like I might defend such a game as I would Sonic06 because that's actually what Sonic06 was in a sense. It was good in some areas but bad in others. It wasn't particularly bad gameplay or bad flavor (flavor was generally spot on. It's just the quality all around that dragged it down and lowered confidence.

I was going to go on a bunch but I can't handle it. I want to change the subject. And besides your question is pretty vague.

Anyway in response to the images Zeupar posted I have attached crappy doodles of my rendition of an updated take on Spring Yard because I felt like it.
 1. an ugly but colorful 'underground' industrial building. the spray above it is not smoke, it's night.
 2. here is the skate park and playground elements of the stage. notice the billboard above the pipe, the trees and buildings in the background, and the Spring Yard pillars sprucing up the stage.
 3. some random open plaza or something almost like a parking lot but it isn't. Trees, lights, and deco sculptures. In at least one place the horizon would be pretty empty for a desolate feel. This might be because the area is actually the rooftop on a wide building. In fact a multi-tiered parking lot would fit.
 4. this image of an indoor section looks pretty boring but the floodlights, ladders, overhead walkways, and classic Spring Yard polka dot holes hopefully shows the vibe I was going for. Ideally it would be more interesting shapes than a large empty warehouse.
other elements that could fit would be cranes and elevators and construction sites. Sonic Megamix version music.