[yse]

Look, we all know it needs doing. Charts like this have to be made a thing of the past.

If we're making a freestyle division, it needs to be known which levels should be included in it. Anyone can add/remove from this list in future posts - this is my best estimation of what needs to happen:

TIMES
Sonic - Mystic Mansion, Egg Fleet, Final Fortress
Dark - all
Rose - Egg Fleet, Final Fortress
Chaotix - Grand Metropolis, Power Plant, Mystic Mansion, Egg Fleet, Final Fortress

EXTRA
Dark - all
Rose - same as times
Chaotix - same as times, plus Ocean Palace and Hang Castle

BOSSES
All Robot Carnivals/Storms
Dark EH, EA, EE - how beneficial is this for the other teams? I think Egg Albatross in particular benefits from TBG in all teams
Metal Madness

RINGS
Chaotix - I'm taking suggestions here. People are saying we should allow TBG here to avoid the horribly slow process of building up a TB manually - I vote against this as it affects scores. Opinions?

SCORES
Put simply, straight ban on TBG here is my opinion. It gets too fiddly otherwise.

At this stage people should nominate levels in which they used TBG, and when submissions go up change them back or incur Rolken's wrath.

My list is: (from an earlier topic)

TIMES
PP - Chaotix

EXTRA
PP - Chaotix again. As you can see I never did these to any great level heh.

BOSSES
Egg Hawk - Dark
Egg Albatross - All
Egg Emperor - Dark
Metal Madness

But I'll fix them up when submissions are re-enabled, so by then it won't matter. I completed the whole game again just for this purpose. :D

EDIT: note that on the Dark bosses in particular, the line between non-TBG and TBG is very, very obvious. Anybody who doesn't comply/doesn't come here anymore can just have their times removed as far as I'm concerned.


-----
RULING: 26/1/07 by yse

All stats which are known to have used TBG have been suspended. Point out any I may have missed and we can request an explanation or remove the offending stats.

TBG will be permitted for ring counts, but any scores or times obtained on the same run are void. (ProTip: if you think you're going too well, hang around at the goal ring for a while)
-----

Players/stats being challenged
Onryou
videogamemaster777

[Groudon]

TIMES
Sonic - Mystic Mansion, Egg Fleet, Final Fortress
Dark - all
Rose - Egg Fleet, Final Fortress
Chaotix - Power Plant, Mystic Mansion, Egg Fleet, Final Fortress

Only 2 I have a problem with is the 2 for Team Rose.  To be honest, I haven't found any good use for TBG on those 2 levels with Team Rose.  Most people should have their TB gauge full "normally" way before the 2 areas where a TB would be beneficial (the first hammer robot on FF can be easily defeated without TB).

EXTRA
Dark - all
Rose - same as times
Chaotix - same as times

Again, Rose.

BOSSES
All Robot Carnivals/Storms
Dark EH, EA, EE - how beneficial is this for the other teams? I think Egg Albatross in particular benefits from TBG in all teams
Metal Madness

No objections yet.

RINGS
Chaotix - I'm taking suggestions here. People are saying we should allow TBG here to avoid the horribly slow process of building up a TB manually - I vote against this as it affects scores. Opinions?

Now there's the problem.  I think there's no way to know if a stat for Chaotix rings was TBGed or not (outside video).  I say allow TBG here.

SCORES
Put simply, straight ban on TBG here is my opinion. It gets too fiddly otherwise.

I'm not big on SAing anything other than Shadow, so I can't say anything about this one.

[sonicam]

Ok, this is probably going to be another failed topic, but I'll post in it anywayz.

For Egg Fleet, I don't see how it's beneficial for times, except you mean only to use it at the E-1000 robots. Even then, you should already have a TB ready, like Groudon said. I agree on everything else though. It really shouldn't matter what stages they effect to great detail, effecting Dark so much and giving unlimited invulunerablities/speedups/levelups with Rose is enough for straight up banning.

Yes, I agree on Extra.

For bosses, I'm not too sure. I'm sure PsyBorg whored TBG for all of his records. I don't know about Egg Hawk though since his records are close to mine and I didn't use it. For Egg Hawk and Emperor it's not smart to use TBG, Albatross is though.

Banning TBG from Chaotix rings is stupid to be honest. All it does is makes the levels so much more long and annoying. Doing ring runs won't give you a good score, I can assure you. Speed and robot death are key and TB makes chains kills shorter.

For Scores, yes TBG can be benificial for some situations. Taking down hammer robots or E-1000s and to ensure some chains.

TBG can make things better and worse, it's all about planning, but still, it should be banned. Enough already. ;/

Long story short, ban TBG from all divisions except Rings-Chaotix.

I'm still not too sure on what I TBGed, I'm sure it was only for some Dark bosses (the ones that have comments on them) and I think one of the Robot Waves with Rose, I really have to try out some of the bosses again and see if I can get the same time without TBG, but I'm sick and tired of playing Heroes... ;/

About just having times removed just because they don't come here is like the only reason why I say Freestyle even though it's pretty much a waste.

[magnum12]

-That list is pretty good. I think you should add Ocean Palace and Hang Castle to the Extra Chaotix missions section, since stealth missions probably could benefit from TBG.
-As far as my times go, here's what I used it on. (I think I mentioned these before though.)
Seaside Hill: Both Dark missions.
Ocean Palace: Both Dark missions.
Grand Metropolis: Both Dark missions.
Egg Hawk: Dark
Egg Albatross: Sonic, Dark
Robot Carnival: Dark
Robot Storm: Dark
Egg Emperor: Dark (My 47 second time is legit.)
Metal Madness.

[Spinballwizard]

Long story short, ban TBG from all divisions except Rings-Chaotix.

My opinion, it has to be all or nothing. Because quite frankly, TBG could, depending on the number of enemies in a level and how many appear onscreen at a time, completely throw away ring competition for Chaotix. In a sense, with TBG active, RAing Chaotix is more about luck than skill, which is why casino levels get tossed already. I wasn't really a fan of Chaotix rings anyways. :/

Albeit there's still room to manipulate parts without TBG, and depending on the number of enemies and the number of rings you get from them you could get a decent charge on your next TB quite quickly.

That said, I've never knowingly used TBG, except maybe on Egg Emperor Sonic, but I mash square on that (and the other teams) while in the air when he's standing still. (I have near or max level Tails anyways, which is more effective for me.) But Not really anywhere else.

Also, I believe the point was made that TBG on some dark levels is actually slower at points. (If I recall, yoshifan's Grand Metropolis vid uses no TBG.)

[sonicam]

Long story short, ban TBG from all divisions except Rings-Chaotix.

My opinion, it has to be all or nothing. Because quite frankly, TBG could, depending on the number of enemies in a level and how many appear onscreen at a time, completely throw away ring competition for Chaotix. In a sense, with TBG active, RAing Chaotix is more about luck than skill, which is why casino levels get tossed already. I wasn't really a fan of Chaotix rings anyways. :/

Albeit there's still room to manipulate parts without TBG, and depending on the number of enemies and the number of rings you get from them you could get a decent charge on your next TB quite quickly.

That said, I've never knowingly used TBG, except maybe on Egg Emperor Sonic, but I mash square on that (and the other teams) while in the air when he's standing still. (I have near or max level Tails anyways, which is more effective for me.) But Not really anywhere else.

Also, I believe the point was made that TBG on some dark levels is actually slower at points. (If I recall, yoshifan's Grand Metropolis vid uses no TBG.)

lolwut Spinny? :X Rings Chaotix is still going to be on luck regardless if TBG is allowed, now if you want to ban TB, then that's a different story. The equivalent of a TBG Chaotix-Rings level is a 20+ minute non-TBG level. It's just a waste of time. Either you use TBG or you just sit there using Flight formation's Thundershoot to build up your gauge. Rings Chaotix will always be on luck, only until TB is banned from Rings Chaotix, which isn't going to happen since we do keep track of Knux/ Rouge M1s. Allowing TBG for Rings Chaotix just makes things a lot less annoying, that's all.

Yes, that's true, that's true with or with out TBG, that's just using TB. I'm only talking about Rings Chaotix, nothing else.

No, I didn't mean on Dark stages, I'm sure that all Dark stages have the potential of being at it's max with the use of TBG, I meant for all other characters, in which TBG is only used as an enemy clearing attack. yoshi's GM record isn't the record for GM. magnum has it and he used TBG.

[eredani]

Now that we're moving TBG to freestyle, I made a list of players who have used TBG.

smizzla - All stats have used TBG
videogamemaster777 - All Boss stats and Dark Times
Rayku - All Boss stats and Dark times
PsyBorg - Egg Albatross All, Robot Storm All
PsyMar - All Boss and Dark Times except Power Plant and Egg Hawk, unsure about Egg Emperor non-dark and FF Dark. FF Chaotix Extra.
Cybrax - Most Bosses, unsure about most stages.
Chao_Fan - All Dark Stages and Bosses, Mystic Mansion Sonic/Chaotix, and I think Final Fortress Sonic/Chaotix Extra
GravyTrain33 - All Dark Times and Bosses, unsure about this.

[KnucklesSonic8]

Cool, TBG is being moved to Freestyle! YAY! Finally, I'll have a better chance at obtaining Times, Boss stats and other stuff here and there. :D

I mentioned this before but just to be clear, none of any of my stats have ever used TBG.

[yse]

-That list is pretty good. I think you should add Ocean Palace and Hang Castle to the Extra Chaotix missions section, since stealth missions probably could benefit from TBG.

How so? To the extent that you could wipe out an entire set of enemies before they see you? I suppose, I'll tentatively add them to the list.

Egg Emperor: Dark (My 47 second time is legit.)

Yeah, I know, I just got 49"88 last night. X)

In a sense, with TBG active, RAing Chaotix is more about luck than skill, which is why casino levels get tossed already. I wasn't really a fan of Chaotix rings anyways. :/

Now here's an idea. Scrap Chaotix rings entirely!

Also thanks to eredani for the list - along with that, there should be a list of charts that have a lot of TBG'd stats like the three I mentioned. Generally it's boss charts. (see PsyBorg's times)

[magnum12]

How does TBG beneift Mystic Mansion (Sonic) asides from the obvious take out the giants with heavy armor? In regards to stealth missions, a TB has decent range. During a run of Metal Madness, I calculated the approximate range to be about 4-5 body lengths (assuming speed formation is used), more than enough range to take out an entire squad of enemies before they see you if you do it right.

[Auriman1]

Now here's an idea. Scrap Chaotix rings entirely!

I'd have to agree with this.  Chaotix rings is somewhat very random to begin with.

[Groudon]

Now here's an idea. Scrap Chaotix rings entirely!

I'd have to agree with this.  Chaotix rings is somewhat very random to begin with.

You mean like Casino Park with Chaotix and Casino Park and Bingo Highway extra missions with Rose?

[yse]

How does TBG beneift Mystic Mansion (Sonic) asides from the obvious take out the giants with heavy armor?

It doesn't. That was the only reason I could see for its use - and well planned it shouldn't come into play, but you can never assume things like that.

[Auriman1]

Now here's an idea. Scrap Chaotix rings entirely!

I'd have to agree with this.  Chaotix rings is somewhat very random to begin with.

You mean like Casino Park with Chaotix and Casino Park and Bingo Highway extra missions with Rose?

Yeah. A random ring container variable from using Team Blast for every last enemy in the Chaotix stages can cause some serious differences in final ring amounts from pure luck.  I might make an estimate of just how much it can differ for a level, if I'm feeling bored.

Edit: I wasn't bored, but I was curious. I checked Seaside Hill and found 43 enemies. If you can get 5, 10, or 20 rings for each enemy, there is a potential 645-ring difference in this level alone from luck.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Shadow Jacky]

you have to take some things into consideration when using TB.  With Dark its commonplace because of time freeze (magnum has made this known due to his super low times on some dark stages).  Also the fact that I have matched or done better when I didn't use TBG.  That still doesn't mean it wont work all the time...like it was said, you have to plan it out.

from my experiences, with sonic its useless entirely.  The only benefit they get is sonic using his light dash attack.  on all of their stages, you can get a TB ready to go when you think it would be good, but most of the time is spent speeding though the stage and skipping stuff enitely which they tend to do because of lack of enemies.  Rose is also self-explanatory with the powerups they get to ensure they get the most of their shorter stages (well from point A to the goal ring at least).  Chaotix is a mixed bag, but MM, PP and FF are 3 prime spots for the TBG to actually succeed in their favor.  This is just with time though as with scores it scores it takes some tweaks to what you did before.

also the fact that if you are going to use this move, that you know how to pull it off without messing up so much.  from an empty guage it takes 3 full glitches to fill it up.  doing this eliminates most of the wait it takes to get a full one when you need it espeically when a run isn't doing to well and you need one now but its taking too long to build up naturally.

My replacements for the TBG are these:

-finding a TB capsule or balloon.  you'd be surprised where some are located and maybe those who RA a lot know where they are and can exploit them.
-using power characters for groups.  magnum had made a note in another tbg topic that gaining tbg faster than normal was like combo attacks in MVC2 (Marvel vs Capcom 2).  in this case, its better with a power character becaus ethey deal way more damage output than whats needed and those bits get transferred into the guage.  other than that, using someone else would result in what Shadow The Hedgehog does.  Each enemies has a certain point factor that goes towards either guage.  The bigger the enemy, the more guage recovers.
-dealing with the situation.  If I was to get thrown into a position that I had used TBG before, I would find another way...simple as that.  Most of the time this works well especially when I goof off and stumble upon a shortcut or 2 (FF did this for me)

There is also an alternative that I didn't notice until I was doing FF with chaotix.  you can also build your guage up by collecting rings which everyone knows, but did anyone know that when you get hurt and lose all but 20 rings, those rings gained back also get put into the guage?  Its slower than using TBG, but it could be just as cheap as long as you have rings. 

here's also a list to what actions make your guage go up:

-sliding/rocket accelling
-combo attacks from power characters or firing your teammates at an enemy
-thundershooting
-killing enemies
-rings/ring balloons (your own even)
-rainbow trick rings (since they do give you rings)
-TB capsules
-flight panels (hitting the blue area near the bullseye grants you a TB...somewhat tricky to pull off consistantly)

I think thats it.  also a note, all but 1 boss time from me used TBG and I do remember what it was.  everything now has not used it.

[magnum12]

-Indeed, if you want to see a really good examples of the MVC2 analogy I gave, I suggest playing as Strider (he builds the gauge really fast) with Dr. Doom set to anti air (the one where he throws debris at you) assist type. It will seem like I'm going off topic, but its relevant to what SJ mentioned about comboes and the TB gauge. Go to training mode, set the options so the opponent always blocks, set the gauge options so it doesn't infinately regenerate. Use the super move where he gets those orbiting drones that fire when you button mash. Engage the Dr. Doom assist, teleport to the opponent's posistion, button mash (quick punch, quick kick, fierce punch for a quick combo), assist, dash, button mash, rinse, lather, repeat. Not only does this show how to build a gauge super quick, its also the infamous Strider lock strategy thats well known in MVC2.
-Now then. Play Sonic Heroes, select Team Dark, and get Omega to max level. Find somewhere with at least 3 guys with rock shields. Use the third hit of Omega's combo (the one with all the missiles). Each explosion should hit several guys at once. These blocked hits (and the destroyed enemies along with it) shoul build the TB gauge like crazy. It works on the same principle that the Strider example I mentioned above does.

[yse]

That's perfectly legitimate, you're not suggesting banning that too are you?

[Bilan]

Im guessing he ws just suggesting that people can still get around a ban of TBG or something

[magnum12]

The point of my last post was to do something I've always wanted to do, take a page out of SM's book and do an informative lecture on gameplay mechanics. The debate over the TBG and the bringing up of the MVC2 comment brought a perfect time for a lecture. I used both examples (I use the power formation "chipping damage technique" all the time since its cool) to demonstrate a similar game play mechanic in use.

[Shadow Jacky]

I use this technique in my Mystic Mansion run with dark and you'll see it when SM gets my vids up.  Just using Omega lvl 3 against 4 robots built it up from nothing to full with one attack.

Also magnum, how long have you been playing MVC2?  I haven't played it in a while myself mainly because of just being me (on the PS2 version) or no arcade machines around where I live anymore.

[magnum12]

I use this technique in my Mystic Mansion run with dark and you'll see it when SM gets my vids up.  Just using Omega lvl 3 against 4 robots built it up from nothing to full with one attack.

Also magnum, how long have you been playing MVC2?  I haven't played it in a while myself mainly because of just being me (on the PS2 version) or no arcade machines around where I live anymore.

-It will be interesting to see the kind of stuff that goes on in those videos. I've checked erendai's list and I'd say that its at least 95% correct.
-I've been playing MVC2 for about 4 years (one of the first games I got for the Dream Cast, played from 2001-2004). I stopped playing after I transferred from Moorpark College to CSUCI. That game was all the rage there. I believe there is an X-Box version of MVC2 with X-Box live support.
-Any ways, while this issue gets settled, I've got a lot of stuff to do, i.e. prepare for finals, get all the S ranks in Sonic 06, progress some more in Disgaea 2, and a bunch of other stuff.

[KnucklesSonic8]

Now here's an idea. Scrap Chaotix rings entirely!

I'd have to agree with this.  Chaotix rings is somewhat very random to begin with.

Tell me about it. If I had to choose a competition on the site that I hate the most/would scrap, I really dislike Chaotix Ring missions! It's so random and so unfair, to me. It's probably the only thing that's keeping me from obtaining 1st Rank on Rings for Heroes, I believe.

But regarding this, I also agree. Forget the Chaotix rings.

[Groudon]

As I said before, if one says to forget Chaotix rings, they're pretty much saying forget Chaotix normal and extra missions for Casino Park.  All of them are equally random IMO.

[KnucklesSonic8]

^^ They are - all of them.

[JBertolli]

I don't know about some other levels but I really don't think it should be allowed for Dark. The only skill required is good TBG skills. I don't think I'd mind anything else, though, because you wouldn't need it as much. I don't mind Chaotix rings but I sure hate extra for Casino Park >:P

[Groudon]

I sure hate extra for Casino Park >:P

Due to the randomness of the slots, right?

Which proves my point that, if you want to remove something because of randomness, you have to remove everything that deals with the same type of randomness (ring randomness occurs in slots, Chaotix TB, and ? boxes and capsules in other Sonic games).

[sonicam]

Now here's an idea. Scrap Chaotix rings entirely!

I'd have to agree with this.  Chaotix rings is somewhat very random to begin with.

Tell me about it. If I had to choose a competition on the site that I hate the most/would scrap, I really dislike Chaotix Ring missions! It's so random and so unfair, to me. It's probably the only thing that's keeping me from obtaining 1st Rank on Rings for Heroes, I believe.

But regarding this, I also agree. Forget the Chaotix rings.

So your reason is "damn, I'm not good at it, so get rid of it!!!!"? Not good enough reason.

If all randomness were to be removed from the site, like I said, Knux/ Rouge SA2B Mission 1 times would have to be removed. All of SADX ring/ score attacking would have to go. There's still no good of a reason to get rid of it. I've already brought randomness up a while ago and I'm pretty sure I got "it's vaild competition" as my answer.

[Auriman1]

If all randomness were to be removed from the site, like I said, Knux/ Rouge SA2B Mission 1 times would have to be removed. All of SADX ring/ score attacking would have to go. There's still no good of a reason to get rid of it. I've already brought randomness up a while ago and I'm pretty sure I got "it's vaild competition" as my answer.

My argument: Emerald Hunting mission luck can be overcome with patience, and when you finally get what you need, it still takes skill to get the fastest collection time.  All normal ? ring containers are (to the extent of my knowledge) 10 or less per level, becoming a fairly controlled variable, allowing for general improvement with patience, and also not heavily affecting the final outcome in scores and RA's in the games, and someone may beat the randomization with skill.
However, a random variable for every last enemy in the entire level can easily result in 30+ (43 in my test of Seaside Hill) random variables in addition to all normal random variables, creating a very, very large difference from randomizing factors.  In Seaside Hill, you can potentially get 860 rings (possibly more) without grabbing a single item or ring in the entire level.  More enemies appear in later levels, allowing for a total 999 max-out without needing to do anything but get lucky.  That seems more like something that should be taken into consideration compared to the others.  The other situations register as "it's valid competition" in my mind, just as you were told.

[Groudon]

All of SADX ring/ score attacking would have to go.

Same would go with Rush, since there's at least 1 ? ring container on every level.  What you get from them is different than in SA(DX) (1, 5, 10, 15, 20, 40 in SA[DX], 1, 5, 10, 20, 50 [IIRC] in Rush), but it's the same concept.

[Shadow Jacky]

if randomness goes...down goes most bosses.

then again I'm no expert on bosses, but to me most of them are random with not a lot of manipulation.