[Rolken]

This just in: SONIC 2006 SUCKS. Ripped straight from 1up-

What we like: Well, it sure is fast -- almost too fast. Speed is one thing, but when it comes at the expense of actual, sensible playability, we have to wonder who on Sonic Team is drinking all the red bull. For such a mass-market product, Sonic the Hedgehog takes some serious twitch reflexes to keep you from zooming off into space (at which point you fall to your "death" and lose a life). It's hardcore in some ways, which is cool, but like the ensemble casts of Sonic's recent adventures, he too shares the spotlight here.

What we dislike: We hate when he has to share the spotlight. Memories of the recent Shadow the Hedgehog haunted us when we saw Shadow driving a jeep around blowing things up with rockets. If we wanted this we'd be playing Grand Theft Auto rip-offs instead. The new playable character's telekinetic powers also sap the "speed" element Sega's so keen to point out, by forcing the player to deal with bad guys by mentally lifting up crates and slamming them into the enemies. We couldn't really seem to do anything particularly effective when we tried to get feng shui on the bad guys, so we just gave up and switched back to Sonic. Sonic's levels sure do look beautiful, but it's more of the same "robots waiting to get hit with the Sonic spinball," while various smash-able crates and walls "block" the path. It's pretty, and it's fast, but ultimately it felt kind of shallow. And the guy who was playing the demo before we got our hands on the controller jumped into the abyss probably 15 times simply because he couldn't keep up with the blindingly fast camera changes. Whoops!

http://e3.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3150561

Even the stuff they "like" is stuff they don't actually like! D: D: D:

[Aitamen]

Interesting... I think I'll like it...  SO fast the eyes can't keep up... like his song said... "too fast, for the naked eye... Sonic the Hedgehog"  I think it'll be good for me, and good to me.  The Demos usually lack a lot (if anyone remembers the Halo 2 Demo(n)) of substance, and so progresses my want for this game...

I just hope they don't name it 2006... I'd cry... at least a little bit

SO everyone else says "no" and I say "this sounds fun!"

then again, I am also the guy who intentionally wrecked a four-wheeler just ot see what the tree felt like at 38 MPH

[douglas]

Infinite Drops Of Doom are not good level design.  I turn of Shadow mostly because I'm frustrated about falling off stuff.  Too fast is also not good, especially when combined with the above.

[Spinballwizard]

then again, I am also the guy who intentionally wrecked a four-wheeler just ot see what the tree felt like at 38 MPH

:O

Don't do that, it hurts. >_>

But you know, I'm not that leary about Sonic '06 (which, to my knowledge, is just being called "Sonic the Hedgehog," which is kind of dumb and will screw up the TSC abbreviations even more). Iono. The trailer's got me hooked. Heck, SONIC HEROES had me hooked, partially because I was just getting off my Sonic withdrawal. Shadow had me hooked as well, though I'm disappointed at how slow it is (unless you're running). Just hopefully this'll be better than both of those.

[eggFL]

Ah, see? I knew it. Action games won't be accepted anymore. This is the real reason Sonic has been getting a bad rep. They're too 'shallow'. *rolleyes*

First paragraph they complain about it being too fast, second paragraph: It's too slow. Wow... just wow.

Sonic critics don't even know what they want anymore. This is why I was always worried what would happen if Sega actually took their complaints seriously. (See my topic.)

[CosmicFalcon]

The trailer thing has me excited right up until you see Shadow. From there on it's all downhill.

[douglas]

Ah, see? I knew it. Action games won't be accepted anymore. This is the real reason Sonic has been getting a bad rep. They're too 'shallow'. *rolleyes*

First paragraph they complain about it being too fast, second paragraph: It's too slow. Wow... just wow.

Sonic critics don't even know what they want anymore. This is why I was always worried what would happen if Sega actually took their complaints seriously. (See my topic.)

No.

Fast is good; so fast you can't control it is bad.  Marketing a game as "fast" and it being slow is also bad.  You're implying a contradiction where the complaint is lack of balance.

[F-Man]

Heh I higly doubt we will get controls/physics that feel different than Heroes/Shadow in Sonic games for a very long time. Except for the Wii of course.

That's what frustrates me the most. Why oh freaking why couldn't they keep it like in the SA games? It was perfect.

EDIT: oh wait I read "shallow" as "Shadow". But still, this sure sounds like it's going to feel like Shadow.

[Rolken]

I don't see how some segments being fast to the point of lack of control and others being slow and boring indicates that Sonic critics are off their rocker. Don't act like the world has some irrational prejudice against Sonic; that attitude is always a key indicator that something is seriously wrong and you're fighting with whatever you can grab onto. Sonic games just suck lately, and it looks like that trend isn't about to reverse.

Oh well. Sonic had a good time in 2D for awhile. So hello there, Wii...

[PsyBorg]

I'm not exactly sure about it now, but the only thing that would make a difference to me is video of the actual game happening. Then, I would consider "buy or no buy" style.


The Wii one I certainly will get, though, regardless if they call it a piece of crap, because I'm going to get a Wii at some point.

[Crowbar]

I fucking knew it.

The trailer thing has me excited right up until you see Shadow. From there on it's all downhill.

That's exactly how I felt. I would complain about Eggman's change of look, but, to be honest, I like the idea of Sonic in a more "mature" universe.

Shame there's everything else to complain about in that trailer, though.

Good to see that no efforts are still being made to improve either the voice-acting cast or the matching of subtitles to what's actually being said.

God I hate this so goddamn much.

[Spinballwizard]

I would complain about Eggman's change of look, but, to be honest, I like the idea of Sonic in a more "mature" universe.

I SO want to make a fake Weight Watchers ad starring him. X)

But yeah. You'd think if they wanted a more "mature" universe they'd also include more mature storylines/gameplay/already-existing-character development amirite?

[Rolken]

How about sonic team matches the "mature" storyline with some mature gameplay. And I don't mean rocket launchers and humvees.

[Crowbar]

I SO want to make a fake Weight Watchers ad starring him. X)

But yeah. You'd think if they wanted a more "mature" universe they'd also include more mature storylines/gameplay/already-existing-character development amirite?

That's exactly it. :(

[Shadow Jacky]

well the guy is saying that Sonic's gameplay is too fast...maybe its just him or the other guy that was playing...what did anyone else think about it?  I would adjust...hell I love speed, but if its uncontrollable then there is a problem. 

Being too slow for playing with Light...well again with sega going into something with Sonic that shouldn't be in the first place.  Glad there is the Wii game, but this one had me going for a sec.  Also the stages look awesome, but that can always be said about the past games.  They can still change things, but they probably wont.  If this does turn out like crap, then I have no hope for them as they really have no excuse to make more bad 3-D sonics at this point and its only going to hurt them.

[F-Man]

The part that's too fast that they mention is probably the second part of Kingdom Valley, which actually looks really cool. It's a single-direction path where you just try to run as fast as you can while jumping above gaps.

The level design in this game looks freaking sweet. In Kingdom Valley, you can see different paths, previous ones as well as those you're heading to all around you. I'm sure finding shortcuts in this is gonna be awesome. :D

Silver's gameplay doesn't look too bad. He's slow, but that just makes it more of a normal-type platforming genre then. With some added twists of course. Like lifting platforms with telechinesy(sp?) lawl. If you look at the gameplay vid at sonic cult, at some part you're walking on a fallen building, then breaking a road farther with boulders so that you can jump onto it (while the cars start rolling down it) and from there jump inside another building. Anyway just saying that level designs look totally cool. And that the controls don't look too raped, I migh hold some hope on those still... :o

Only gameplay we haven't seen so far is Shadow, which is just going to suck anyway, we all know it. :(

[eggFL]

Fast is good; so fast you can't control it is bad.  Marketing a game as "fast" and it being slow is also bad.  You're implying a contradiction where the complaint is lack of balance.

The marketing isn't that important. Game reviewers don't need to judge games on what they perceive the game /should/ be, even if the marketing implied that. In this case, they are just holding Sonic to standards that are mostly boring (and sometimes unreasonable). They always have. Sonic should be this and shouldn't be this, etc... One of their disappointments is simply the fact there are non-Sonic characters in the game. Fortunately the 'slow' segments go to the two other characters, giving them their own gameplay identity and respecting the speed of Sonic. Not good enough huh... gamers would tend to criticize Sonic games for never having the speed of the originals (oh really) well now see what we got and look who complains.

Anyway we'll see the game for ourselves and see how fast it /really/ is. They're probably just overreacting since they're used to slow games.

Heh I higly doubt we will get controls/physics that feel different than Heroes/Shadow in Sonic games for a very long time. Except for the Wii of course.

That's what frustrates me the most. Why oh freaking why couldn't they keep it like in the SA games? It was perfect.

There was a difference? All four games were pretty much the same in terms of the way you controlled them. Besides, Heroes and Shadow were different in their own ways as well. Shadow kept the slide kick and triangle jump from Heroes. The only thing I remember them not having that the SA games did was the ability to roll while running. That was cool, but it's not a big deal. Besides we don't even know if the new game has it or not.

Shadow smoothened out the character physics of Heroes and slowed down the moves a little, so controlling Shadow felt richer than the ultra lightweight Heroes characters. Really, besides the tightness of cornering for Shadow (given to him on purpose I assume), it was a fairly ideal control setup. At least that's what I think.

I don't see how some segments being fast to the point of lack of control and others being slow and boring indicates that Sonic critics are off their rocker. Don't act like the world has some irrational prejudice against Sonic; that attitude is always a key indicator that something is seriously wrong and you're fighting with whatever you can grab onto. Sonic games just suck lately, and it looks like that trend isn't about to reverse.

They are off their rocker and here's why -- the main complaint about the slow parts is not that they're boring, but that they're slow. It's a matter of principle. The same reason they criticize the game for having too many characters. All other games can have multiple characters, but when Sonic has them, people freak.

And I really doubt the other characters are that slow, anyway. (I hope they didn't nerf Shadow, anywho..) It's still a Sonic game after all, and they're not Amy or Big. They're just too slow from 'what you'd expect' from a Sonic game. Of course, when they play as Sonic, he turns his head all the way around and say it plays too fast, and that it's too shallow.

Sonic games have been really good in my opinion, even if they are not quite the same as the 2D games. The games since Sonic Adventure explored a couple of changes to Sonic's movelist, but the main way you can improve the game (and pretty much any game) if you ask me is to increase level length and level depth. This game claimed to do just that, and we have yet to hear anything contradicting that. If this game really follows through with that promise, it will easily be the best Sonic. If anything, the /changes/ they make to the formula (including the mach speed sections, depending how they work) are more likely imo to spoil the game than keeping things the way they were.

Speaking of mach speed sections, that's probably the speedy part he was bothered by. And it probably isn't a bad thing anyway, since it's just a level gimmick, a mere section of a much larger stage. All Sonic stages have their gimmicks, and we can certainly deal with one like this. They may be shallow themselves, but they don't make the entire game shallow. The guy probably just didn't recognize that.

But yeah. You'd think if they wanted a more "mature" universe they'd also include more mature storylines/gameplay/already-existing-character development amirite?

The new Eggman is probably not meant to make him look 'darker' or more evil, but mainly to make him look like more realistic, physically. Sonic series is not meant to be mature, and apparently that still hasn't changed. But I guess that's beyond some gamers.

Good to see that no efforts are still being made to improve either the voice-acting cast or the matching of subtitles to what's actually being said.

The subtitles will probably be fixed before release, it was just a demo!

[douglas]

The marketing isn't that important. Game reviewers don't need to judge games on what they perceive the game /should/ be, even if the marketing implied that.

Marketing is everything.  Reviewers get a limited time to play a game, and will have had their opinion of that game built up by the demos, videos and schmoozing sent their way by the publisher.  If you don't believe me, ask anyone in the industry; the publisher is far more important in selling a game that the developer is.  Not only that, most people (ie not hardcore gamers) don't research what games they're going to buy, they browse in the shop.  What's there that could influence their decision?  What they've heard about before and what looks good on the shelves.  Marketing.

As for the speed issue, you're missing the point.  Sonic Team has yet to put together a control set/level design combination that allows you to go fast without 1) removing control as in the loops in Adventure 1 or 2) having sufficiently little control that you fly into oblivion all the time as in Shadow.

I think the best way to compare it is to compare a rollercoaster and a go-kart.  I drive go-karts that do 70mph tops, but it's all under your control and hence feels insanely fast and rewarding; whereas rollercoasters may go faster but because they're out of my control they don't feel as fast and rely on rapid changes in g-force to create that "thrill" factor.  Sonic games of late are rollercoasters; as a gamer I want control.

In conclusion, gamer's impression of speed =/= how physically fast the game is.

[yse]

Marketing is everything.

Word. I don't even need to add to that.

I think the best way to compare it is to compare a rollercoaster and a go-kart.  I drive go-karts that do 70mph tops

I seriously hope you haven't crashed one of those. I once crashed a go-kart that was probably going... oh, I dunno, 50kph? (the max speed was apparently 77)

Now, I've had back troubles in the past, but that next week... wow. That was something else.

But yeah, it's amazing how much faster it feels, than being in a car even. I think that effect is created by being that much closer to the ground, not by the control element... but the point stands I suppose.

[douglas]

Heh, it was just for comparison.  I always feel that if I'm driving we're going faster than if someone else is (although that's quite often true as well . . . damn, waterproof metaphors are hard to come up with!).

And yes, I've wiped out on one of those karts, and yes, it hurts.

[eggFL]

Marketing is everything

Yea, I know, but, it doesn't affect how good a game is. That's all I was saying.

As for the speed issue, you're missing the point.  Sonic Team has yet to put together a control set/level design combination that allows you to go fast without 1) removing control as in the loops in Adventure 1 or 2) having sufficiently little control that you fly into oblivion all the time as in Shadow.

I just think Sonic games are very playable and give us control of maneuverable characters (homing attack, high speed, etc) .. it's up to us to use them any way we can. Minute to learn, lifetime to master, etc. They're still fast and fun to control just like the old games and the game rates on you on time. So I think they have that going for them, it's just up to them to improve the playgrounds to use with it.

Let's forget about the loops for a second which seem to be a hot topic for some reason. Everywhere else, we have control and therefore the sense of speed and rewardness is fine. Especially in SA2 where the levels and control are so sweet.

Since the 2D games, it hasn't been so much about keeping Sonic's momentum, managing his inertia, etc, the way you would hold backwards just to slow him down a bit, which rules, etc.... and that's because in the new games, Sonic is more hyper. He accelerates faster and has homing attack and stuff. But some of the old school stuff is still there. Particularly Shadow because they really added some weight to the character physics in there, and not just by killing his cornering, although that was an interesting challenge as well.

Btw a while ago I saw some gameplay sequences of this new Sonic and they look veeery nice. :O

[douglas]

Minute to learn, lifetime to master, etc.

Except I find that it takes a lifetime not to just go flying off of edges or into enemies if I want to go fast.  Moreover, when I do that, I feel like I haven't done something wrong; the game says "go fast", I do, I die.  It's not challenging, it's frustrating.

To feel fast Sonic doesn't have to be insanely fast.  Just give me a nice control setup and wide open spaces to run in and I'd be as happy as Larry (who was very happy, apparently).

Or alternatively don't listen to me because I'm just bitter I can't play 3D Sonic to save myself :)

[eggFL]

That's fine, those are just my thoughts.

[Bilan]

Or alternatively don't listen to me because I'm just bitter I can't play 3D Sonic to save myself :)

Your not half bad at Sonic 3D.

n00b >_>

[douglas]

That's not proper 3D, that's isometric.  Also most of my good rankingness come from rings.

I need to finish TAing that properly actually . . .

[Rolken]

Except I find that it takes a lifetime not to just go flying off of edges or into enemies if I want to go fast.  Moreover, when I do that, I feel like I haven't done something wrong; the game says "go fast", I do, I die.  It's not challenging, it's frustrating.

This is exactly what is wrong with 3D Sonic, in its entirety. You don't feel like you lose because you're not skilled, you feel like the game pulled a fast one (lol) on you, and that's not fun. Apparently Sonic Team STILL hasn't figured that out.

Maybe they can at least fix stupid light dashing...

[eggFL]

You rarely fall off for /no reason/, there's usually a rule to it and something you could have done to prevent it. At least it has that. (for example, knowing which types of platforms have an invisible guard or not) I know the games are sloppy sometimes, but that's part of the excitement. ANYTHING GOES!! >_>; But really, why adventure games can have badly designed superlame puzzles that's called a rewarding challenge, but heaven forbid you take steps to prevent yourself from dying in an action game.

It's like I said before, if they fixed -everything- they would still have to make Sonic harder to control. Otherwise, there might be no game left. When I make a good run, I'm thrilled because I put the active effort to maintain that run and keep Sonic from FLYING OFF the course. If anyone can do it, well, that's just not the same. (and even then, the above is an exaggeration since that's mainly Heroes -- the other games are hardly that bad in terms of control)

Anyway I saw the Sonic Cult movies.... some thoughts:

- Sonic seems to move really slowly except for the 'mach speed part'.
- lol @ mid-level loading times, Sonic Adventure style. Hopefully they upgrade it to Shadow the Hedgehog style. The eagle that picked up Sonic in part one was no where in sight for part 2. But I'm sure they will fix that for release, etc.
- The new guy has NO SPEED, but has awesome powers.
- adventure stages lol
- the characters move slowly in the air. Springs keep them in the air for a long time while they loop their 'omg ive been springed' animation.
- I've been told ALL of Shadow's gameplay is in a vehicle. If I can confirm this then I will post a flame-rant.

Ok, with these new revelations the game takes a couple of hits. *weeps* Still great, though.

[Stardust Speedman]

You rarely fall off for /no reason/, there's usually a rule to it and something you could have done to prevent it. At least it has that. (for example, knowing which types of platforms have an invisible guard or not) I know the games are sloppy sometimes, but that's part of the excitement. ANYTHING GOES!! >_>; But really, why adventure games can have badly designed superlame puzzles that's called a rewarding challenge, but heaven forbid you take steps to prevent yourself from dying in an action game.

I TOTALLY agree with you!

[Marth]

You rarely fall off for /no reason/, there's usually a rule to it and something you could have done to prevent it. At least it has that. (for example, knowing which types of platforms have an invisible guard or not) I know the games are sloppy sometimes, but that's part of the excitement. ANYTHING GOES!! >_>; But really, why adventure games can have badly designed superlame puzzles that's called a rewarding challenge, but heaven forbid you take steps to prevent yourself from dying in an action game.

Anyway I saw the Sonic Cult movies.... some thoughts:

- Sonic seems to move really slowly except for the 'mach speed part'.
- lol @ mid-level loading times, Sonic Adventure style. Hopefully they upgrade it to Shadow the Hedgehog style. The eagle that picked up Sonic in part one was no where in sight for part 2. But I'm sure they will fix that for release, etc.
- adventure stages lol
- the characters move slowly in the air. Springs keep them in the air for a long time.

There's always some rule, but that doesn't make it okay. It's not fun to lose for some almost-random reason.
If Sonic falls through the floor, it's because the floor is fake (Emerald Coast, Lost World)
or unstable (every "solid" floor and wall can be glitched through, or at least
the character can keep tripping on the edge as if trying to fall through).
If Omega runs off the cliff, it's because his homing feature is messed up, and because
there just happens to be no little invisible wall at the edge of the platform.
If Sonic goes crazy and jumps off the cliff, it's because his homing attacks are messed up,
or something that was supposed to be automatic either messed itself up or was interrupted by the player.

I haven't seen the videos yet. They're probably too much for my dial-up connection.

-more about this after

-I read somewhere else that SA had mid-level loading times. What was it like?
(SADX goes smoothly, except for the tiny pause that comes a bit after the next area is entered.
Chankast (with SA saved on my hard drive) is so smooth that I can only notice by seeing the lighting change.)
About this eagle, is it that something is clearly disappearing, like how there's just an empty space at the
back of the flat mountain in section 1 of Emerald Coast?

-Adventure Fields= :)

-Ugh... is it even worse than SA and SA2? (end of Emerald Coast, and also the vertical place in Green Forest)
_______________________________

what the ultimate Sonic game would be:

-If there were other characters, they'd have Sonic-like gameplay (like Tails in SA,
or Amy without the slowness... also without Zero or Sonic/Robotnik being annoying).

-Grades would be given for 3 categories: Time, Rings, and Score.
Time-attackers are rewarded instead of ignored, and there can be different challenges
without having a whole bunch of stupid, boring, or nearly-identical missions.
(just 1 mission and 3 ranks in each)

-Sonic Heroes did the first thing right, but it still wasn't great. The reason?
It wasn't "Sonic-y" enough. Fighting should be reduced to certain small areas or stages or something.
Maybe there could even be a few mini-stages based on SH or SA2 or something.

-less (or no) shooting, no hunting, and DEFINITELY no fishing

That's all I can think of for now.

[eggFL]

I'm pleasantly surprised if SADX fixed this, but in SA, in Windy Valley you reached a tornado *loading time* then you get through the inside of the tornado *loading time* then appeared in a completely different area with cheesy music.

Now in Sonic06, we see Sonic grab onto an eagle. The eagle flies him a little, then the game is interrupted by a 'now loading' screen. When it's done, Sonic appears in a completely different area, on the ground, with the eagle nowhere in sight. Ugh. But this will be fixed in the final release... right? The gameplay in the demo wasn't finished yet, right? Only which parts are finalized and which arent...

I approve non-Sonic gameplay in the games, but I generally prefer if the characters have some speed, although not as fast as Sonic. But it doesn't really matter. As a fan, I really want character's speeds to be consistent from one game to another, and it would drive me nuts when they make everyone else Sonic clones. (Sonic Advance anyone?) The best non-Sonic stages are the hunting stages starring Knuckles, to me that was a pretty clever and it was addicting. Oh and a new observation:

 - New character can hover (a la Rockman X in X4-X6) but it looks bad when he does it. Besides the fact that hovering is lame, they could have at least made it look less stiff and boring than it really is.

"Time-attackers are rewarded instead of ignored" Time attackers aren't ignored since you have a time bonus and your best time is recorded. Ultimately, the score which combines time and completion together, is much more interesting, and any good racer is capable of doing well enough to get the highest rank anyway. It only applies to the game's ranking system, and, in terms of replay value, having it based off score is just fine.

"and there can be different challenges without having a whole bunch of stupid, boring, or nearly-identical missions." Agreed.

Heroes was not the most serious/franchise-defining release. The game was good considering its gimmick, imo. Controlling one character is best, but that doesn't mean we should hold every single Sonic game to that standard.

In Sonic06, Sonic spends more time in the air from a spring than any other game. I'm wondering though if it's because the demo ran slower than the final game would. That would explain why other things seemed slow, including Sonic's running speed in the normal segments which I initially thought was slow on purpose. Anyway the spring thing looks awkward because Sonic stays still in the air, except his hair keeps wiggling until he snaps out of it and the player regains control.

Another observation:
 - Sonic's homing attacks aims for grind rails.

That was discussed in chat, and it was pointed out how that actually can cause more trouble than it's worth.