[Parax]

I'd like to get a discussion going on the direction of TSC; that is, the issues currently facing us, and what we can do about them to ultimately improve and expand the site. There are a few places we could stand to make some improvements, so I'm going to bring up a few points and I'd appreciate hearing everyone's thoughts on the matter.

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I'm going to start by addressing what I feel is the biggest issue we have at the moment and the main reason I'm starting this topic: proof. TSC has always run on the honor system. You submit whatever you want, and we typically catch out cheaters by noting suspicious stats and patterns. In my opinion, we should seriously consider changing this policy. Times have changed since TSC started, and almost everyone has access to a camera of some form, especially since most smartphones have a camera built in, on top of the fact that a lot of competitors have access to direct capture methods.

This comes with pros and cons. The biggest con is inconveniencing competitors, because we have a -lot- of charts, and this is a valid concern. However, I think the pros outweigh the cons, because the pros are HUGE: this essentially eliminates BSing. When you're required to show proof for every record, it would be extremely hard to get away with making up times. This would also vastly simplify the process of correcting typoed stats.

Along with that, this gives anyone outside TSC a lot more confidence with our charts. Imagine browsing the site for the first time, and learning how the charts work. It is not hard to figure out how easy it is to submit stats you didn't get. Having more strict proof requirements and plainly displaying proof alongside stats will make it much easier for people to trust in the legitimacy of our charts and become competitors themselves.

We also have methods of catching out BSers, but it typically takes time to determine for sure one way or the other whether someone's cheating, and in that time we have illegitimate stats on the charts. This isn't really acceptable.

My proposal is that we require proof for all red and platinum stats. This would only apply to stats submitted after the system is put into place, but I think it'd be cool to also have a method to allow people to retroactively go back and attach proof to their old stats, if they'd like to. Proof can be in the form of either a video of the run or a picture of the results screen or stat screen. Requiring it for only top stats is a compromise between requiring proof for everything and not requiring proof at all, but if anyone has any other ideas that would put less of a burden on competitors I'm open to hearing it. I really think we should change -something- though.

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Other areas of potential improvement:

1. Overhauling the charts. We currently don't have any system in place to deal with version differences, DLC, etc. The current approach to version differences of "just use whatever version is best" works ok, but it's basically ignoring what is a fairly significant problem. Competitors shouldn't be penalized for not having the console with the best version of the game. Also, the way DLC is handled on the site is hacky and inconsistent.

I think ideally the system the charts run on needs to be updated to fix these things, but given how much of the burden of actually doing this would fall on Gerbil (ie: pretty much all of it), it's up to him how far we go with updating the charts, if we do it at all. I recall him telling me there were some technical reasons that adding support for handling version differences would be extremely difficult. It's a big enough issue that I still think we should explore fixing it if there's any way it could be done, but if we can't, it would be a shame, but oh well. This old post lines out how I think a system accounting for version differences could be implemented.

2. It would be really cool to integrate some form of livestream support on the site. Something akin to SRL's stream page would be neat to integrate into TSC.

3. I'm wondering if it would be worth having an official TSC Twitter account, as most decently big sites seem to have one. We could use it to promote TSC and the marathons, announce charts/rule changes, plug TSC Twitch streams, or highlight new achievements on the charts.

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Thoughts? If you've got anything else in mind we can improve on that I didn't bring up, feel free to mention it.

[DarkAura]

Just some general questions and some suggestions.
1. Where do we show the proof?
2. We should add a system where we can go back and add comments (which is what I think you mean)
3. Making a TSC app on Droid and iTunes would be a help for uploading proof and easier navigation.
4. The twitter seems like a good idea. Maybe start using the Facebook page as well?
5. Integrating livestream will be require a layout change, if you really think about it.
6. No offense to Gerbil, but he'll need some help with all this. Adding some experienced coders to help him might be good.

That's all for now.

[Parax]

1. Separate column next to the stat with a little icon that links to the picture or video.
2. Yeah, that would be a good addition.
3. We don't have anyone to develop an app. Beyond that, I don't think we need one. Though making it as easy as possible to post proof would be nice, yeah.
4. I don't use Facebook so I don't know anything about how that works. :s
5. Not really, just a separate page on the sidebar.
6. That's up to him.

[Werey]

Another thing I think should be addressed is the videos section for each game.

For example, on Sonic Adventure 2 there are over 400 videos, and most of them that are for the same stat are almost the same time, or there's a video of a stat that is further down the charts. There's also some that have a record video, then 4 other videos (often from the same person). I understand having multiple videos if it's for like, a version difference glitch/Ring record but otherwise it's just unnecessary.

Some videos are usually outdated therefore their source no longer exists or the video links are just broken altogether. I think everything that's submitted should be checked over by an admin to make sure A) It's not similar to a current video of that category and B) that the video links work how they should.

[Parax]

For reference re version differences, I wrote up an idea for how we could implement this that I still think is pretty good a while ago, in this post. I'll throw in a link in my first post.

One other thing: don't underestimate the impact this would have on BSing... it wouldn't simply reduce it but almost eliminate it entirely (except in cases where someone goes out of their way to make a lot of fake proof... granted, it has happened, but rare).

However, Umbreon's point of the big con is a mark of concern. Not particularly for me, but others definitely could see this as an issue. I personally think this leads to (possibly) less submissions overall, though the other side of that argument is "well, those are the cheaters, etc.".

Actually, since all we've been doing here is talking hypotheticals, I'm curious. Is there anyone who would actually personally compete less if we required proof on all red/platinum stats? I don't think it would be a terribly big deal, but I also have a setup that makes taking a quick screenshot really easy for me.

Another argument though, especially setting a limit of red submissions, would lead to the fact that any potential cheaters would likely resort to not submitting reds to attempt to try to remain undetected, which the true only way to remove that problem would be to require proofs for all submissions, even if cheating detection is super effective.

I don't really think this is something we need to worry about for a few reasons:

1. Why would you BS an orange stat? On most charts you can get a legit orange with very little effort.
2. It's more important for stats that are higher up in the charts to be guaranteed legit than ones further down. For example, you can BS a blue stat, but that has next to no impact on the rankings, so it's not terribly worth pursuing.
3. You can already bs a bunch of orange stats. Implementing a system of required proof doesn't mean we won't be paying attention and calling out people with suspicious submission patterns.

The other issue, obviously, is how this affects competitors. Yes, proving stats is far easier than it ever was. But will knowing this discourage serious competition from some?

I think that while it may dissuade some competitors, it'll encourage others to know they aren't competing against cheaters.

How long do we give players to submit proofs for those high-caliber statistics? Will they be auto-removed or manually removed if there is a lack of proof? What about proof that is outdated, f.e. the player improves his own record? Will the old proof be auto-removed, even if a video, or if the player first submits a video then a picture, will the video remain?

The system I had in mind was that the site processes a stat's ranking before you submit, and if it's good enough, it asks you for proof before letting you submit. If a stat's proof is tied to a stat itself then old proof isn't a concern.

Also, will there be verifiers on the TSC staff to manage proofs submitted?

Nah, I don't think that's necessary. It'd be publicly visible so if anyone submits anything suspicious we'll probably hear about it pretty quickly.

An official TSC Twitter again could be a good thing to get the site out there - though this needs someone to manage that and do it well.

I'm willing to do it.

Another thing I think should be addressed is the videos section for each game.

Ohh yeah, this is another really good point, the videos sections are a complete mess. I started trying to organize the Generations section a while back but it was ridiculously tedious work; I'm not touching SA2 with a fifty-foot pole. This is something that theoretically could be handled automatically by the site.

[DarkAura]

Really short post, but I thought it would be something worth sharing: I think when you submit, you should be shown the rank of your time, so you know if you need proof or not. Although I'm aware that you can go and look on the chart before submitting or open up another tab, but I thought it would be a good addition.

[Etch]

Proof is good and all but people are still allowed to use emulators and such? ;p

Lot of honor system goes into that but it's nothing more proof couldn't rectify I guess.  I also realize some stats are rather difficult to compete for otherwise.  If people are willing to put in the countless hours for records have a damn camera running once in awhile.

[TimpZ]

I really like the idea of proof. Off the top of my head I think this could be some general guidelines:
- If you use an emulator, video is required.
- If you play on console, photo of the TV-screen is sufficient
- Top 3 / site record TA-stats requires video
- For ring-attacks/scores, a general route/method description is required if only a photo is provided (?)


1. because there's absolutely no reason not to record a video of an emulator run if you're so serious about IL's that you want to get to the top percentile

2. Because it's harder to both TAS or Gameshark and record on console. Doesn't help against e.g. S&K debug mode but idk how to handle that

3. Because there's few things so heart-breaking than trying to beat a hard-to-beat time with no recorded strats or comments anywhere on the web. Possibly this could be implemented after the game has 10-20+ competitors in order to not discourage competition to spark and also fuel it after it's on.

4. Doesn't have to be extensive, but might discourage people from just looking at the charts, enter debug mode (on genesis) and place the same amount of rings and just take a photo of the goal. To prevent from people to BS at least without doing their research first.

Now that I think about it, I don't actually remember what triggers the position values to spawn or despawn in debug mode on genesis so it might be less of a problem than I think it is :p. At least to random 13-y.o. who just troll the boards.



As for version differences. If I understand Parax's suggestion correctly it's something similar in implementation to the ZSR leaderboards, which I give a big thumbs up to.

If you don't know what I'm referencing:
http://zeldaspeedruns.com/leaderboards/oot/any


BTW, are we going to embed the videos or only allow links?

I'm pro-twitter for TSC too.

[SB737]

One other thing: don't underestimate the impact this would have on BSing... it wouldn't simply reduce it but almost eliminate it entirely (except in cases where someone goes out of their way to make a lot of fake proof... granted, it has happened, but rare).

Yes it's happened lol :P

It's not difficult to TAS a time and then get a screenshot of it and submit, so image proof on an emulator doesn't necessarily eradicate BSing in that area, the idea of Timpz's idea of you have to provide a video for emulators makes more sense, because it's much easier to tell if someone has TASed in a video rather than an image. But would we allow official emulators to get away with image proof, because on Sonic Mega Collection Plus you can use savestates in the middle of levels, so even then you could cheat and submit image. And people could say they played it on the original console (E.g Sonic 1 on Mega Drive), say they used a capture card to get a decent image, but they actually played it on an emulator, used savestates etc, and got a screenshot, basically how can you tell the difference between a screenshot on an emulator and on an official console. The invention of TAS has made it very difficult to moderate who's cheating.

I also agree that only the top stats, platinum and red stats, need proof, because lower stats don't really make much difference to the leaderboards, admittedly if 100's of stats are submitted then it could make a difference as you get a decent sitewide leaderboard position. If that happens then perhaps some proofs could be asked for by an admin just to prove the person actually has some skill at the game.

Also, if you're a new member, and have lots of awesome stats that you want to submit it shouldn't be too much of a problem, because (except for the older games) the game stores your times, so you can just get an image proof from that.

Definitely add a Twitter account for TSC, and I would recommend a Facebook one as well. Basically Twitter is pretty big in America, but less used in the UK, Facebook is the main social network in the UK, so I think both would be beneficial.

As for creating version difference leaderboards that could really confuse the leaderboards, because you would either have to wipe the leaderboards and start afresh (which obviously can't happen as DsS would commit suiside :P), or people would have to move stats and stuff like that, I don't really know how it could be done, there wouldn't really be any way to tell for stats of members that don't compete anymore, as you couldn't really ask them or get them to modify the version.

I think it's a good idea to add some livestream integration, then we could stream the marathon on here, kinda like SDA do, and possibly add TSC race night onto the page, it could spark some interest more into TSC.

As for the videos problem, I'd be happy to organize it - I started this some time ago, and it's nicely organized: http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?topic=5432.0 , so if you want me to do it then sure. But I can understand if you don't want me touching it.

[Thorn]

I'm not going to be as thorough with my thoughts as the rest of you were, partly because Umbreon knows my thoughts already and partly because I'm mentally fried after a rough night. I'll just state the obvious in a wordy way and hope it looks smart.

I believe that we overestimate how seriously people get into competing, and the moment we require proof is the moment we bring submissions to a standstill. Some of you may think that you'd rather have less submissions if you know they're all valid, but I encourage you to question that thought. I know it's an opinion and that I can't change it without evidence that doesn't exist until we try such an idea, but I do know from past experience on TSC that when the site is dead, everybody feels it and starts talking about it.

I do agree with comments about integrating streams into the site, as it's the direction that speedrunning in general is going. However, the onus of making this work is on the community. Some of you have noticed that TSC's Twitch.tv channel slowly moved from Sonic games to whatever the hell was on our minds at the time as we attempted to get a wider audience of viewers, and in hindsight it was a pretty terrible idea, so I've told those with a stream key that we're pushing things back to Sonic. That said, we need two things to make this work:

• Viewers - Even when we were streaming Sonic games, we couldn't get people on TSC to watch TSC's streams, whether speedruns or casual play. That's pretty depressing, and not indicative of a site that can easily transition to a focus on streams.
• Streamers - I have a small, trusted crowd with stream keys for TSC's channel. If we're going to move some of the site's focus to TSC's channel, then we need people that are trusted to stream, willing to stream for TSC's viewers, and willing to stream on TSC's channel (as opposed to everybody declining use of the site channel for the sake of building up an audience on personal channels). On the other hand, we could allow integration of many personal streams into the site, but I feel that creates a difficult coding situation, requires account integration with TSC, and creates a problem when streamers want to stream things other than Sonic (as it would show up on TSC).

[Parax]

Re: emulators: these rules won't have any impact on the rules regarding emulators. To be honest, it's a bit more complicated when it comes to classic games overall, as I don't particularly like the idea of telling someone they can't submit their stat if they didn't manage to snap a picture fast enough and the game proceeded to the next level. The only solution that comes to mind is either just telling people tough luck or being more lenient on the rules for games where stats aren't saved, though. As far as faking proof through TAS though, we can just handle that the same way we would if someone did that now.

I believe that we overestimate how seriously people get into competing, and the moment we require proof is the moment we bring submissions to a standstill. Some of you may think that you'd rather have less submissions if you know they're all valid, but I encourage you to question that thought. I know it's an opinion and that I can't change it without evidence that doesn't exist until we try such an idea, but I do know from past experience on TSC that when the site is dead, everybody feels it and starts talking about it.

I really, really doubt that. Mind that we'd only request proof for stats that are red or higher, which means random people casually submitting all the stats from their saves likely won't be asked for proof at all. Anyone who puts effort into getting a red stat would likely also be willing to take a picture of their stat.

I'm still waiting to hear if there's anyone who would personally submit less if we put rules like this into place, rather than all of us just speaking for hypothetical people that don't exist. :P

[Millernusgaming]

I personally like the Idea of attaching a Video for the red and platinum stats.
I attach a Video almost everytime, where i think its necessary, when im in this section. Sometimes people forget that and you can still find these on their channels.

Proofing a stat is not difficult, if you really did it. Exceptions could be things that are pure
luck or really hard tricks. An example could be the BJG in Apotos Act 2 in Sonic Unleashed. This would need further investigation and more time for proofing.

For Emulators its not too hard running a camera or getting a capture programm.

A livestream on the sites frontpage would be extremly awesome. I think it should be evaluated
which people are allowed to stream on the site and the conditions to it.

I don't use Twitter or Facebook but i guess this could help bring more competitors/viewers to this site.

For the old videos that are replaced with new records from the same person there should be the possibilty of removing it from. I have still some old videos that are void.

@Umbreon i would personally only submit less(and i don't submit that much either way) if i would have to give proof for EVERY stat. Everything else is fine for me

[TimpZ]

Personally I'd get more motivation to compete if a video was required for the top places. Especially if I'd watch it and be like "I can beat that".

I agree with Parax that there should be less speculation whether there would be less competition or not. Obviously we should have a vote about it.

[SB737]

Imo, when I work really hard on a speed run, and get a good time (which would probably be a red/platinum time), I record a video of it. If I was competing then it wouldn't affect me at all if you had to provide proof, i would compete the same amount.

[Parax]

I suppose if nothing else we could give it a trial run, try implementing a system like that and see how it affects submissions.

There's still a couple things that need to be covered before we can do it, though.

1. In regards to classic games - do we just do the same thing we do for everything else, or be more lenient with regards to proof? This is especially tricky on levels like Sonic 1's Scrap Brain 3 or Sonic 2's Death Egg where the timer doesn't really stop at the end of the level.

2. We should probably hear from Gerbil on the technical aspects of implementing this into the site.

I'm also going to go ahead and make us a Twitter later on since nobody's had any objections to that. We'll need an avatar/background, though.

[Alondite]

I think requiring proof is fine for top stats. In the case for videos, however, I don't think they should be made public. I know I'd be annoyed if I had discovered a new top strategy and was forced to sort of "reveal my secret" to the rest of my competitors.

[bertin]

I haven't been competing as much as I used to but I used to just submit a ton of red (or platinums if I got them) stats at once in my entire session of competing in a game. If I were to come back to something like say Sonic Heroes I would probably submit less or compete in the game less because I would get quite a bit of stats at once snapping a picture of all of them would eventually get on my nerves.

[SpanielWare]

Although Paraxade doubts his views, I wholeheartedly agree with those expressed in Thorn's paragraph regarding how seriously most people take competing on the site, and whilst I do enjoy competing here at TSC, I'm not exactly devout to it. I'm not saying I'm fully against the idea of a new proofing system, but having to provide proof for certain stats would be a bit of an annoyance, and perhaps a minor deterrence - I'm sure other members of the site share comparable views. (Sorry for the short post but there's not really much else for me to say, other than that I concur everything in Thorn's post.)

[Parax]

One small update, everyone go follow our new Twitter account. :P

[SqwareEcks]

I'm 100% okay with a requirement to provide proof for records/platinum stats, but there's one concern I do have about making proof required for red stats: Some games (Sonic Adventure 2, as an example) have so many competitors in some of the charts that you could be in 30th place or even 40th and still have a red stat. On top of that there are so many categories in some of the charts you could be looking at having to make dozens or even hundreds of photos/videos if you're someone new to the site who's putting in a lot of stats at once. That could become overwhelming quickly, and not only for the competitor but for whomever at the site has to sort through and review it. I know I would have approached signing up for the site with quite a lot more trepidation even than I already had if I'd had to front proof for every red stat I was starting out with. Again, I'm not against it totally, I just think that the logistical factor could be opening a bit of a Pandora's box.

tl,dr; what Thorn and danieldude said.

But yeah, videos section could use some scrubbing. Totally okay with that.

p.s.: As a compromise, maybe require proof on all red stats for charts with fewer than 10 reds, and then only for top-ten stats on charts with more than 10 reds? Maybe that would be too complex to code, though...

[theultimategamer95]

Agree with DarkPolarNight. There are even some stats there that I don't believe are true.

[TimpZ]

So basically you're saying we should use the system we already have, but more agressively DarkPolarKnight?

[Parax]

The thing about tied records is people do BS them and it is a problem. This usually tends to happen when people look at ring charts for a game and they think "well, I COULD get these, but I don't really want to bother actually doing it" and they submit a tie anyway.

Having the proof available privately pretty much ruins the entire point in my opinion. The point is not just to cut down on BS on the charts but also to show everyone who's competing on the site or considering competing that the stats on our charts are legit. I don't think they should have to put their trust in an admin to have faith that the charts are legitimate.

I get that asking for proof for all red stats is a tall order, but I'm not really sure what else we can really do, short of just leaving things the way they are now. :/

On another note, flying fox brought up another problem - in some of the GameGear games, the results screen that shows your final score is the same for every level, so there's no way to tell from a screenshot which level it is.

[SB737]

On another note, flying fox brought up another problem - in some of the GameGear games, the results screen that shows your final score is the same for every level, so there's no way to tell from a screenshot which level it is.

You could get a screenshot when you hit the goal post (not sure if you can pause at that moment though), I think you'll be able to tell what level it is from that point.

[Parax]

Yes, that works for time and rings, but not score.

[SB737]

a short video may be required of the end of the level through to the scores so that you can tell which level then, is BSing scores as big a problem as times generally are?

[flying fox]

Actually that's only going to work on times. Some of the old sonic games only have two digits for rings, when loads of records are in the three digits. So for rings and scores you'll have to provide a video for them.

[Proxima]

Surely, if there are specific games where that's a problem, you could make a separate rule to cover them? (And forgive me, I'm sure this has all been discussed before I was around, but I'm not clear on why it's okay to submit three-digit rings on games that don't allow it, but not four digits on Marble Garden in S3?)

Regardless of what's decided, if I do manage to sort my life out and get to the stage where I have enough time to compete again, I'll definitely get into the habit of making videos. Topics like this make me feel really bad about not having done that from the outset :(

[Werey]

Well, you are describing exactly how TSC is right now. Someones suspicious, they tell an admin. What Umbreon means by having faith in the admins is with the proof. The proof is available so everyone gets to judge whether or not they think it's correct.

Also, there is a K in your name :P

[SB737]

So a few people feel that providing proof for every stat is a little tedious and they are basically saying they can't be bothered (which in my opinion is just being lazy), so my idea is we order the necessity of proof on how much that chart influences the overall leaderboard, so this page tells you how much: http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sitewide/faq, So popular games like SADX and SA2B could require proof for platinum and red stats, but lower influencing games like Sonic Free Riders or Sonic and Sega Allstars Racing DS could require less proof, like platinums and the top 5 red stats.
I'm not exactly sure how the site gives colours for stats, whether its a certain times range or something, so if someone could explain that it might help a little.

DPN, you did basically just describe the current system.

Also arguing about whether someone has a capital K or not in their name is a little sad :V