[flying fox]

Right first all of Hyper is right. I decided to take race nights off for a week so we can sort out these problems. The reason I didn't say anything earlier was because I needed the whole of Monday to make sure things were alright at home, go shopping to get stuff and then pack for the next day. Tuesday I was traveling for half of the day to see RPG and he had the rest of the day planned for me. So yeah some of us do have lives outside of TSC.

[DarkAura]

Sorry. I get uber confused when nothing happens. I have a (tiny) reputation of being out of the loop at school. (But I bet that they leave me out on purpose since I'm so unpopular)

[Parax]

So I'm getting that some people are pissed that others didn't participate. This is supposed to be a fun thing, yes? A low turnout seems to me to indicate that there's not much interest in the concept of race nights, or maybe it was something else like a bad game choice. I don't really see how guilting and telling people they should be -obligated- to participate in something that's supposed to be fun is going to work, however. Even if it works the first time, it's certainly not going to be sustainable for any decent amount of time.

The question shouldn't be "how do we make people participate?", but rather "how can we make this into something people -want- to participate in?" Think about that.

Unrelatedly, here's a random idea. Why don't we make the races a bit more spontaneous? That is, we still have a set time and date, but we don't vote on the game or goals at all; rather, we decide it at the last second among whoever ended up showing up at the race. I could see that being interesting. Up to you guys if that sounds like a good idea though.

[flying fox]

Right now that I am back in internet land, it's time to sort this out. I am going to go through the whole of race nights, so be warned it's going to be a massive post.

As I said earlier, it's been taken off for a week to sort out the problems and some people agreed with this. Since I haven't seen SDM for a while, I have asked Strong Bad (who SDM did ask to help out with the ranking cards) to also help with the organising of race nights and he said yes. So thank you SB :)

For starters, people really need to back off on the whole ‘you need to participate’ or ‘the higher ups should participate’ thing.  The whole reason for race nights, was for the community to get together to have fun. You can do this by either racing or having fun watching people stream the race. It doesn’t matter either way.  As for me and the higher ups, Umbreon said he doesn’t want to race because he doesn’t like it. I have no problems with this, I don’t want people being forced to race if they don’t like it. Thorn can’t make it because of work, which sucks. No idea about the other admins, but as for me I did explain in IRC why I couldn’t participate for what feels like the billionth time and I rather not explain it again in here >_>

Time/day change?
Right I know some people have said to me that they couldn’t make it because of the time and/or day wasn’t right for them. So I would like to know what times and days are suitable for you guys. For example we could race on a Sunday 10am EDT 3pm BST/ 12am AEST. Be aware I can’t find a time suitable for everyone, but I will try my best to accommodate most people.

Game and goals
Umbreon mentioned being more spontaneous with the races with game choosing.  I did start to think that maybe the planning was too strict. I am for the idea of giving the racers the choice to choose their own goal. So that way you guys can either have longer or shorter goals and compromise for people who might be interested in racing. As for choosing your own game, we are still going to do alternate 2D/3D week. Just not sure on whether to keep polling for the game you want or not. I can see where Umbreon is coming from, but if a game is chosen and people don’t want to race in it, they might leave the channel instead of sticking around and watching the stream maybe.

I know someone mentioned ranking cards. The reason there was no sign up sheet for heroes, was because there were no ranking cards in the ftp folder that SDM set up for me and SB. So nothing we could’ve done there. Results of the race will still be posted to the forum if anyone is interested.

Lastly, I saw that some people didn’t realise that the race was on. So we might have to make a post on the front page of TSC or something. Since S3&K was announced and not heroes and had more racers than heroes. Also people outside of TSC are welcome to join us in the races.
 

[Werey]

I agree with Umbreon on making Goals/Games last second decisions.
also sa2b

[TimpZ]

Like I said before, I don't feel like lingering around for 1-2 hours just waiting for the race to start in the IRC, let alone be decided at all. I need set times so I can plan my weekend out so I'm against that idea. If people don't like the idea of voting in advance, why not just do a rotation? That would rule out the possibility of unpopular games to never get a race too.

If you want to gather availability times I'd probably be able to race somewhere between 18:00 and 1:00 GMT most Fridays and/or Saturdays. Perhaps some mornings Saturday/Sunday too but that's a big variable.

[Parax]

The time would be set in stone. I imagine we could just have people start joining an hour or so beforehand and then create the race maybe 10 minutes before the scheduled time? So then the race could still actually start at the scheduled time.

It sounds like a fair system to me, ensures that the terms of the race will be determined by whoever actually shows up to race. Also cuts out some debatably unnecessary structure.

edit: It'd be nice if we could say "if you aren't ready by x time, the race will start without you" but I don't use SRL enough to know if that's built into the system there.

[Cream147]

So I'm getting that some people are pissed that others didn't participate. This is supposed to be a fun thing, yes? A low turnout seems to me to indicate that there's not much interest in the concept of race nights, or maybe it was something else like a bad game choice. I don't really see how guilting and telling people they should be -obligated- to participate in something that's supposed to be fun is going to work, however. Even if it works the first time, it's certainly not going to be sustainable for any decent amount of time.

The question shouldn't be "how do we make people participate?", but rather "how can we make this into something people -want- to participate in?" Think about that.

Unrelatedly, here's a random idea. Why don't we make the races a bit more spontaneous? That is, we still have a set time and date, but we don't vote on the game or goals at all; rather, we decide it at the last second among whoever ended up showing up at the race. I could see that being interesting. Up to you guys if that sounds like a good idea though.

Firstly, I just want to say that whilst I agree with your point that no one should feel obligated to race, people who have implied prior that they will race and then just don't bother to turn up will annoy me. 10 people voted to do Team Sonic as the Sonic Heroes race yet only 3 bothered. That is why I am annoyed at people. The situation with higher ups somehow being obligated to race is completely different to this and wrong. If you're not going to enjoy racing, then why should you race? That doesn't mean you can't help out either in my opinion.

I agree with your question distinction in the second paragraph, and of course, making it into something that people want to participate in is the primary goal. However, strongly encouraging people to race is one such solution to this goal - the more people that race, the more fun everyone has. Again, nobody should be forced or made to feel bad or somehow exiled from the community if they do not.

And to your idea - it's a good one, although people might get annoyed if they turn up and then a game is raced that they do not have/do not want to race. However, if we can agree on the time change that flying fox has proposed then hopefully the time won't actually be too bad for anybody to turn up to. However, I think that problem is more than compensated for by the fact that under that system the game that the most people who have actually showed up to the race feel like competing in at that time will be the game that's being played (along with the goal people want as well). It's certainly worth trying, though I still think that we should nail down SA2 as the race on 06/10 (edit: 6th October, dating ambiguity for the lose) as it is the week of the release of the HD version so people will be motivated to race it. It might be in the end that a healthy mixture of voted games and pre-decided games is the way to go in the end - I don't know. It's best to try and see I think.

EDIT: And yes, races should start on time.

[DarkAura]

I think that making everything spontaneous might be a bad idea, considering that I don't enjoy the classics(Don't shoot me down) or Generations, and countless other sonic games. If I turn up, and it's a game I don't like, I will leave. Who says others won't do the same?

[Proxima]

It's certainly worth trying, though I still think that we should nail down SA2 as the race on 06/10 (edit: 6th October, dating ambiguity for the lose) as it is the week of the release of the HD version so people will be motivated to race it.

I can't deny that makes sense. It's just unfortunate for me, as 13/10 is the Play Expo event, so if that ends up being the date of the next 2D race I'll have to miss it. And I was hoping to get in a Sonic 2 race as practice before Play Expo :(

[Cream147]

I think that making everything spontaneous might be a bad idea, considering that I don't enjoy the classics(Don't shoot me down) or Generations, and countless other sonic games. If I turn up, and it's a game I don't like, I will leave. Who says others won't do the same?

Firstly, the races would still alternate between 2D and 3D so if you prefer your Sonics to have a third dimension for example, then you'll get your fix (although undoubtedly Generations will turn up at some point). I do agree that some people will leave if they don't want to race the game that's chosen. However, the hope is that more people turn up to begin with, and once they're there, the game that's chosen will be the game that is most popular with the people who are actually there and in a position to race, as opposed to turning up and having to race a game that was voted for by lots of people who then didn't bother to show up.

[DarkAura]

^True. I just hope this way won't fail once we have the race of 10/13. Just one thing I think we should do, if it can be played on an emulator, we need to tell the people it is possible to. We don't have to give away the game, just say if we can use an emulator.

[Luxray]

We don't have to give away the game, just say if we can use an emulator.

Races usually adhere to site rules. So yes, use an emulator. I don't know why I need to be answering this because it should be common lore.

[DarkAura]

I meant that if the game is possible to be played on an emulator, tell us it can. I don't think downloading it like, just a few minutes before the race is completely fair. Lets say we are racing Sonic Advance. Your hint would be "This game is playable on an emulator"

[Bilan]

The site rules on whether or not it can be played on an emulator are a little flexible, maybe? Probably not the right word, but here's what I mean:

If there is an emulator for it and you have an iso (ie i dunno, a GC emulator and an iso of Shadow or something), that isn't good enough to automatically qualify it to be valid for competition use.

tl;dr if your pc cannot emulate it at the same speed as it runs on console, you're out of luck.

I know this mostly applies to more intensive games, ie not mega drive games or GBA games, but I feel it worth pointing out as my ancient laptop can only just emulate GBA games at 100% speed, and DS games are out of the question, so anyone sitting on top of some old and/or underpowered tech is shit out of luck on that front.

[flying fox]

Right couple of things I just thought of. We could say meet up at SRL 15 minutes before races actually start for setting up. That should give us some time to pick the game,goal and people turn up. Then we must start at the time picked.

What do you guys think of a mod picking the two most competitive games at TSC then picking one out of those two. For example, 2D night is coming up so I would pick S1 and S2. Then you guys would pick which one of the two you want and goal. Or we could just pick out of whatever 2D games we have excluding S3&K since we raced.

Also if more people don't post about what day and time they would like the race to be on, then I'm just going to have to leave it as it is, because I can't sort it out for those who want it changed :(

Edit: since it looks like so many people are for it, you guys are picking the goal now :o

[Parax]

I meant that if the game is possible to be played on an emulator, tell us it can. I don't think downloading it like, just a few minutes before the race is completely fair. Lets say we are racing Sonic Advance. Your hint would be "This game is playable on an emulator"

I think you're misunderstanding. The idea isn't to keep the game a secret. The idea is not to pick the game at all until the last second.

Anyhow, since there seems to be a decent amount of support for my idea, why don't we try it this Saturday? Considering there's nothing planned anyway, and this setup doesn't exactly need a whole lot of planning.

[Cream147]

I meant that if the game is possible to be played on an emulator, tell us it can. I don't think downloading it like, just a few minutes before the race is completely fair. Lets say we are racing Sonic Advance. Your hint would be "This game is playable on an emulator"

I think you're misunderstanding. The idea isn't to keep the game a secret. The idea is not to pick the game at all until the last second.

Anyhow, since there seems to be a decent amount of support for my idea, why don't we try it this Saturday? Considering there's nothing planned anyway, and this setup doesn't exactly need a whole lot of planning.

I'd be happy for us to improvise and try Umbreon's idea this Saturday if everyone's cool with that.

With regards to the time change, I'll make official my stance of 'no opinion' because it makes no difference to me whether it's the current time or 10AM EDT Sunday. If people feel strongly about it one way or the other, I think it's crucial for you to speak out as soon as possible.

[DarkAura]

I understand it, I just have awful wording skills. Once we pick the game, tell us if it is available to play on an emulator. That's what I was trying to say.. This sounds like a great idea. I would join in if possible.

[Werey]

One thing to add, if you're planning on using an Emulator and the games are still hosted on Speed runs live, you'd better get some streaming equipment as they require you to stream.

And I agree, we should try using Umbreons suggestion this saturday and see how it goes.

[Luxray]

One thing to add, if you're planning on using an Emulator and the games are still hosted on Speed runs live, you'd better get some streaming equipment as they require you to stream.

And I agree, we should try using Umbreons suggestion this saturday and see how it goes.

You don't have to stream. I was watching a Pokemon Crystal bingo race and someone didn't stream (they soon dropped out afterwards)

[SB737]

I cant rcae this saturday
For times, i think it should be every saturday. Morning time for US, afternoon for UK, and whatever time is left for the Aussies (I think werster is the only active Australian I think so we need his viewpoint), this prevents it going into the night for most of the active racers. The reason I quit the Heroes race halfway through was because I've never speed ran the game before, and I knew it would end up taking me all night - the trace simply started too late, I can't be starting at 10pm and end up being up throughout the night, if it starts at something like 3pm then I'll be fine, and i expect it'll be more convenient for everyone else, but we'll have to see what people thinnk of that proposed time.

[flying fox]

I can't move it to 7pm EDT because then the Brits will be racing at 12am. I had them saying to me to move it earlier not later so if I do that we'll lose the Brits. Don't know what's happened to the people who wanted me to move it, they haven't posted in here yet but from the looks of things people want me to keep it the way it is.

[Werey]

Everyone get on a boat then well all be in the same time zone!

[Cream147]

I think we should keep the time as it is. If people who wanted it moved aren't posting then clearly they didn't want it moved that much.

Because of how we have been yes-no-yes on whether there's a race this Saturday, I'm not expecting many people to turn up but if just a few of us do so we can trial Umbreon's idea that would be great.

[Luxray]

(I think werster is the only active Australian I think so we need his viewpoint)

:'(

[werster]

edit: It'd be nice if we could say "if you aren't ready by x time, the race will start without you" but I don't use SRL enough to know if that's built into the system there.

I have voice on SRL, so I can remove people from the race if they aren't ready by a certain time. This of course implies I'm around, but if you want to do this, I'll make sure I am.

Regarding time, it actually has to be done a lot more specifically than "let's try and get a time where the most people are awake." First of all, who is -actually racing-. Caring about Brits or Aussies makes no difference if none of them are actually racing. Second of all, who does it actually make a difference to. Like I mentioned before, my sleep schedule is flexible as I don't have a job, but there are people that do, get there input first, mine is absolutely irrelevant.

[DarkAura]

There's something I want to add, but this is about TRN247, we can only play one game for our ranking cards. Is it possible to make more games available to race with other people to make our race cards better?

[flying fox]

No because the one person who can do that isn't around at the moment and has access to the ftp folder where the cards are stored. Which is why me and Strong Bad haven't been able to give them out.

[Bilan]

I was under the impression that the whole point of the ranking card that it was to be used universally for all games?

If it's supposed to be a separate card for every single game then what is even the point.

Mind you it's not like SDM is here to read my horrible/contentless/snickering posts as he went AWOL after designing this frankly unnecessary and complicated system to be tacked onto something that was supposed to be a "turn up and have fun" style event.