[flying fox]

^ For some reason I can't get francisco's quote. So there is a slot machine in CS2. If CS1 and 2 get treated the same as S2's CN, then we would probably hear a huge sigh of relief from alot of people.

Also I can confirm there is no slot machine in CS3. I have looked everywhere twice.

[Parax]

Mad Gear 1 - 1'04"16

[flying fox]

Casino Street 3 - 476 rings. Got it about 20 minutes ago. I think it's maxed but that section where there are loads of bumpers and cannons, has LOADS of rings everywhere. Infact on my first run I got 475 and knew something wasn't right. So played it again and it turns out I missed a ring >_>

[SonicAD]

Here's the plan on charts I want to have up for this; any thoughts would be appreciated so I can make changes before we actually go ahead with this, so we're not putting up a level just to remove it immediately after >_> :

Times:
Splash Hill 1
Splash Hill 2
Splash Hill 3
Casino Street 1
Casino Street 2
Casino Street 3
Lost Labyrinth 1
Lost Labyrinth 2
Lost Labyrinth 3
Mad Gear 1
Mad Gear 2
Mad Gear 3

Rings:
As above, minus Casino Street 1

Scores:
As above, minus all of Casino Street

Bosses:
Splash Hill Boss
Casino Street Boss
Lost Labyrinth Boss
Mad Gear Boss
E.G.G. Station

Special - Times:
Special Stage 1-7

Special - Rings:
Special Stage 1-7

Special - Score:
Special Stage 1-7

[Groudon]

Special - Rings:
Special Stage 1-7

Special - Score:
Special Stage 1-7

Why no times for special stages?

[SonicAD]

Right, lost that when changing things around, editing that back in...

[Luxray]

Totals obviously >_> <_<
That seems right to me. Nothing seems to be left out.

EDIT:
Oh how could i forget! iOS freestyle for CS2/LL2, and what is the position on supersonic?

[flying fox]

Ok me and Umbreon have looked at CS2 and can't find a slot machine so er I guess that's it :o

[francisco]

Ok me and Umbreon have looked at CS2 and can't find a slot machine so er I guess that's it :o

yeah, I just said yes because I know I've been everywhere in the level.

[werster]

Scores:
As above, minus all of Casino Street

I don't think I understand this at all. CS1 falls under the same category as Casino Night which as I mentioned before, I don't understand why it doesn't have a score chart. Scores are not maxed just because of a slot machine paying out rings; time bonus, combos, the amount of bumpers you can get in your time, (and in casino night's case, the 50K perfect bonus) all also contribute to your score. It's like saying that because the time bonus can be maxed on a level we shouldn't include score. The whole thing baffles me to be honest.

But CS2 and CS3, unless I'm mistaken, are in the same bracket as Hill Top! Sonic 4 has a time over people! And well an obtainable 80K time bonus on every level, so spamming the bumpers would only go for a few seconds for good scores. Correct me if I'm wrong but this seems highly inconsistent.

[Aitamen]

Rings in CN aren't included because they max the counter, and without effort (read: purely luck) similar to Gamma's Hot Shelter.  MG1, for example, allows a maximum to be displayed because it is skill based.  I may disagree with the mindset itself, but it is consistent where applied, I believe.

Scores in CN are completely luck-based (you can't get the full time bonus, so you'd have to get a Perfect bonus, as well as all enemies (there are very few, and I can only think of two that are able to be combo'd together), and bumpers, which leads to a score based almost entirely on getting fast jackpots for variation).  Unless I'm mistaken, un-maxable rings are the only time TSC allows luck-based records (Ring monitors in various games, I believe, are the only exception to the rule.  This is outside of my realm of knowledge, and before my time, however.) 

If S4 has a time over, than I agree with your assessment of CS2-3, and this should be changed immediately.  I would give more opinion on CS1, but I've yet to play the game.  I agree, however, with the S2 ruling for rings in CN, and am leaning yes (for that reason) for keeping scores out as well.

That said, if CN had a 4-digit counter and kept a time limit, it would be an interesting "how lucky do you feel?" chart, haha.

[werster]

Scores in CN are completely luck-based (you can't get the full time bonus, so you'd have to get a Perfect bonus, as well as all enemies (there are very few, and I can only think of two that are able to be combo'd together), and bumpers, which leads to a score based almost entirely on getting fast jackpots for variation).  Unless I'm mistaken, un-maxable rings are the only time TSC allows luck-based records (Ring monitors in various games, I believe, are the only exception to the rule.  This is outside of my realm of knowledge, and before my time, however.)

Completely luck based? I can't begin to tell you how wrong you are. For those who are aiming for top score, the run would go as follows:
1) Get all the rings as fast as possible. Have you had a look at a Casino Night map? That is no easy task. A fair load of skill here
2) Go the jackpots. Yeah sure, this is luck, but we plenty of charts with luck in them, so I don't see how luck being included is an issue, I mean why not remove Casino Park Chaotix times then?
3) Go into those 100-point-paying-out-slot-thingos till time up. Spamming, just like Hill top

I truly and honestly don't see why this chart isn't allowed. And as such, I see no reason against putting in CS1 Score charts either.

Also for the record, I wasn't arguing against ring charts being banned for CN and CS1, my viewpoint there is the same as yours Aita.

[Parax]

Luck shouldn't be a factor here. There are TONS of places where your time is largely determined by luck (almost all of SA(DX) rings and... probably half the charts on the site really). The question should be, given that it's possible to infinitely scalp rings/score, is there still room for competition? Evidently the time over says that you can't scalp as long as you want, so it seems yes, there is.

I agree with not tracking CS1 rings... honestly it's pointless either way since it's probably not too difficult to max out the ring counter before 9'59, so I don't feel too strongly about it either way... score though, we just made a big deal recently (well... a year or two ago at least, I don't remember when exactly) about changing the rules to allow previously banned scalping tricks in the Genesis games because of time over, so at this point to not track score in Casino Street over the same thing would just seem dumb and very inconsistent.

[Zeupar]

score though, we just made a big deal recently (well... a year or two ago at least, I don't remember when exactly) about changing the rules to allow previously banned scalping tricks in the Genesis games because of time over, so at this point to not track score in Casino Street over the same thing would just seem dumb and very inconsistent.

That was to make the rules less random and easier to enforce. I am for deleting all the score charts that involve scalping, but people have spent time trying to get good scores on said charts, so I can see why some people don't agree with me. I haven't tested it yet, but if getting the best possible score in any of the acts of Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode I involves scalping, I think that adding charts for them wouldn't be a good idea because said charts would measure mainly boredom. I think that consistency is important in a competition site, but adding pointless charts to be consistent with our past mistakes would be stupid.

Some players like seeing the games being pushed to their limits even when it involves boring strategies, but they have the official leaderboards for that.

[Parax]

I don't see exactly what your argument is. :/ We've never tracked or not tracked charts based on how interesting their strategies are. It's just plain not relevant and not at all a compelling reason to not track it. In the end, it looks stupid on us if we keep flipflopping over this and make a big deal about consistency just to turn around and be completely inconsistent on whether we ban limited scalping, but that's just my opinion.

[Zeupar]

We've never tracked or not tracked charts based on how interesting their strategies are. It's just plain not relevant and not at all a compelling reason to not track it.

I would like to change that trend, because it should be relevant. That way we wouldn't track pointless charts.

[Parax]

...not sure you'll find much support there.

[Miles9999]

I can't stand playing Sonic 4, it's such a terrible game. Playing such an atrocity is as uninteresting as possible, so we shouldn't track charts for it.

[flying fox]

Slightly off topic here: Lost Labyrinth 1 - 241 rings.  Found another 10 rings that's in an obscure place from the video. Currently working on MG3 rings at the moment. I am half way through it. I am at where the path splits so I need to look into that properly and not at nearly 2am >_>

Now back on topic: Just going to give my opinion on CS scores. Was talking to werster about it on IRC and to be honest I see no reason why CS2-3 shouldn't have score charts. You see werster tested out the bumpers and got 100 points every 7 seconds. He reckons it'll be 8,700 from them for 10 minutes. Ok let's take francisco's ring stat it was let's say 457 rings. I know it was inbetween 400-500. Then the score would be just over 50k. If you want the highest score on those acts, then you would need to get an 80k bonus and as many rings as you can collect. Also CS2 would be quite funny what with the random cards. I would actually find that quite interesting doing it that way. As in pick up as many rings and bumper points as you can within whatever the time limit is for an 80k bonus.

[Groudon]

I can't stand playing Sonic 4, it's such a terrible game. Playing such an atrocity is as uninteresting as possible, so we shouldn't track charts for it.

"I hate this game, so we shouldn't track it" isn't a valid reason to not add charts for a game (unless it's as much of an abomination as S1GBA where everyone agrees).

[werster]

Kinda the point there, Miles was taking the piss out of Zeupar's post when he said we shouldn't track level because the strategy for obtaining the stats is uninteresting.

[Zeupar]

Luck shouldn't be a factor here. There are TONS of places where your time is largely determined by luck (almost all of SA(DX) rings and... probably half the charts on the site really).

The last part of your statement isn't true.

Was talking to werster about it on IRC and to be honest I see no reason why CS2-3 shouldn't have score charts. You see werster tested out the bumpers and got 100 points every 7 seconds. He reckons it'll be 8,700 from them for 10 minutes. Ok let's take francisco's ring stat it was let's say 457 rings. I know it was inbetween 400-500. Then the score would be just over 50k. If you want the highest score on those acts, then you would need to get an 80k bonus and as many rings as you can collect.

If that is true, we should have score charts for those acts.

[werster]

Luck shouldn't be a factor here. There are TONS of places where your time is largely determined by luck (almost all of SA(DX) rings and... probably half the charts on the site really).

The last part of your statement isn't true.

That all depends on what you call luck, Zeupar. You could argue all of Heroes times can be determined through luck just so you don't fall through the wall. Another exmaple, I was just speedrunning Egg Station, I could not force the final boss to use a certain move, but I just kept playing the level until he did, was that luck too? Or was that just patience? It is my opinion that luck in speed running is all just patience, which is a part of speed running and thus is not grounds for banning a chart at all...

So the way it seems, there is no arguement at all against CS2 and CS3 Score charts. CS1 rings are definately out. CS1 score is all that's left. I've already presented my case, dunno how everyone else feels though.

[Zeupar]

Luck shouldn't be a factor here. There are TONS of places where your time is largely determined by luck (almost all of SA(DX) rings and... probably half the charts on the site really).

The last part of your statement isn't true.

That all depends on what you call luck, Zeupar.

No, it doesn't. It was an exaggeration.

CS1 score is all that's left. I've already presented my case, dunno how everyone else feels though.

In my opinion, we shouldn't add a score chart for Casino Street Zone Act 1 because it involves scalping.

[Magnezone]

My thoughts.

[werster]

Ok so it turns out I was completely mislead about this slot machine. I'll give a brief description for those who like me, had no idea:

3 Rings, pays 10 rings - and 10000 points.
3 Bars, pays 20 rings - and 20000 points.
3 Sonics, pays 30 rings, and 30000 points.
3 Jackpots, pays 150 rings, and 50000 points.
1/2 Bars, pays 2/4 rings, and 2000/4000 points.

So score charts really are just spamming that for 9 minutes. I've no idea how to manipulate this, other than super sonic gets 3 jackpots every time. This is a stupid slot machine, but nonetheless I still find no logical argument against tracking it. Being luck based means nothing, it's been stated several times that numerous charts involve luck, it not being an interesting strategy is about the worst excuse I've ever heard, competition is still viable so this chart should definately go up to. For reference, a test run with sonic netted me 787670 points (super sonic got 1651710 <_<)

So this, as Zeupar said is another scapler in essence. So unless we want to review the whole discussion about whether scapling is ok or not, we pretty much gotta add this chart for consistency. I understand what Zeupar says for no wanting to delete previous charts because people have worked on them, but it's just sloppy and illogical to not have the same standards for what we consider to be competition worthy throughout the site.

My two cents is that scalping is fine anyhow. Having another chart to compete on is not really a bad thing anyway, if you hate scalping that much, then just don't do it yourself.

[Luxray]

Luck shouldn't be a factor here. There are TONS of places where your time is largely determined by luck (almost all of SA(DX) rings and... probably half the charts on the site really).

The last part of your statement isn't true.

You are such a smart-ass bitchlol<3

Ok so it turns out I was completely mislead about this slot machine. I'll give a brief description for those who like me, had no idea:

3 Rings, pays 10 rings - and 10000 points.
3 Bars, pays 20 rings - and 20000 points.
3 Sonics, pays 30 rings, and 30000 points.
3 Jackpots, pays 150 rings, and 50000 points.
1/2 Bars, pays 2/4 rings, and 2000/4000 points.
3 Eggmen, takes all your rings, and gives no points.

I'm not sure how you did not know this (or maybe i was forced to know it from the pinball CS2 on the iOS), but this is the main concern i have with the randomness and how 'luck based' the charts become in the levels with Slot Machines. But really, my point isn't worth trying to argue for because there is the simple matter of precedence, which alot of you seem to like to use around here, in Sonic 2. We have a time cap, so it logically makes sense that there has to be a limit to how high the scores can get. But then the matter of scalping arises, and we've seen in some examples, that TSC is very inconsistent in having a default protocol for.

My view on this would be to allow the ring and score charts for CS2/3, simply due to the fact that there isn't a slot machine in the level. CS1 Rings are, obviously, out of the question. However, now to inject a valid reason, CS1 Scores should be disallowed, simply due to the fact that:

The scores are reliant on rings, so having a chart allowed even though it is reliant on a banned chart is fine?

wut

Someone explain to me why we should have a chart be allowed when it is reliant on something we disallow. That is a logical fallacy :/

[Parax]

Luck shouldn't be a factor here. There are TONS of places where your time is largely determined by luck (almost all of SA(DX) rings and... probably half the charts on the site really).

The last part of your statement isn't true.

I don't know the exact number but I'd be surprised if much less than half the charts depended on luck to some extent or another. Getting the game to cooperate with you exactly when you need it to often takes an absurd amount of luck and can very often determine whether you end up with the record or not. So I don't really think my statement wasn't true.

My view on this would be to allow the ring and score charts for CS2/3, simply due to the fact that there isn't a slot machine in the level. CS1 Rings are, obviously, out of the question. However, now to inject a valid reason, CS1 Scores should be disallowed, simply due to the fact that:

The scores are reliant on rings, so having a chart allowed even though it is reliant on a banned chart is fine?[/u]

wut

Someone explain to me why we should have a chart be allowed when it is reliant on something we disallow. That is a logical fallacy :/

This is actually a pretty good point. If we're disallowing CS1 rings then we should disallow CS1 scores, if we're allowing CS1 scores then we should allow CS1 rings.

[flying fox]

This is actually a pretty good point. If we're disallowing CS1 rings then we should disallow CS1 scores, if we're allowing CS1 scores then we should allow CS1 rings.

I agree with this. Now off topic again. Metal Gear 3 - 326 rings. I thought yeah awesome an act that would challenge my raing skills. Looked into it, played it and was very disappointed. Not very challenging and too easy to get :(

[francisco]

Ok let's take francisco's ring stat it was let's say 457 rings.

just you to see how random those cards are, I got 597 rings first try just now...

In CS1, I think it shouldn't be a score chart in there, since it can go up to 1,5 million points gettion 8000 points every 5 seconds and finishing the level. it would be pointless having that kind of route since everyone can do it normally. competitions are usually to test player's skills, and if we're going to have a chart that lots of people will get (almost) the same stat I don't think it has any sense in having a score chart for it.