[BlackMephitis7]

Can we start submitting stats for good future, bad future, and past zones yet????
It's one of the features that I love about Sonic CD.
78 levels (including the eight special stages)
Good times.

[Luxray]

Time Divisions
The game's Time Attack mode is to be used for setting records.

Rings Divisions
The game's Time Attack mode is to be used for setting records.

Score Divisions
Scores must be attained in a single continuous run (without deaths).

Unless you're doing scores, you have to use time attack mode, which give Present For Acts 1 & 2 and Bad Futures for Act 3. Since those are the rules, then any time period is valid for scores, just as long as you don't die.

[BlackMephitis7]

You can use level select, just like the other Sonic games.
The US version even lets you restart the stage like time attack mode.

When you finish a stage via level select, you go back to the title screen...
We should be allowed to submit time stats for past, bad future, and good future stages.

The differences between time zones are numerous.
We should also be allowed to submit time stats for the 8th special stage.

There are 78 levels in Sonic CD all together, and I don't understand why we can't submit time stats for them.

Is there some mysterious reason we must use Time Attack mode, and that's it?
I know there are the future/past sign posts, but traveling between times shouldn't be allowed, IMHO...but that's another discussion entirely (I don't really care either way TBH, because on the other hand, it could be cool to switch between times in a speed run.)

I mean, I agree for the present stages, and act 3 bad futures, Time Attack mode only.
But, we shouldn't exclude all the rest of the stages in the game just because they aren't listed in time attack mode.
That's like cutting out at least two thirds of the game.

[Aitamen]

Note that I'm not an admin and not even that respected, so take my views with a grain of salt: I've been known to be an asshole.

while indeed the obesity of games has never bothered TSC (how many charts does SA2 have?), I believe the inability to use something in the course of normal play (such as Charmy + Charmy or Heavy + Heavy in KC) disallows it... unless I"m mistaken, there's more than a handful of stages that can't be played via normal play.

Also, enforcing this game becomes a lot harder, and while I do like the idea of there being more, new (to me) SCD to play, along with new routes to learn and whatnot, at that point, there's a lot of other bullshit to deal with.  Also, aren't some stages not completable, for whatever reasons?  or can those be zipped through?

I don't know enough about SCD, as I've ONLY ever run it in TA mode specifically for competition.  There's also the lot of log work required to get everything working (GerbilSoft) and getting rules made for it (SonicAD).  If it adds signifigant gameplay and competition routes to the game, it may be allowed, though...

and I'll never complain about 2D games getting more weight on Sitewide ^_^

[Luxray]

BM7, TSC has a thing for catching out liars in stats. Time Attack mode helps to minimize this as a simple screenshot can resolve issues. As for timezones, you are free to travel through time in levels, but you must start with Present -in- Time Attack mode.

[Aitamen]

^ TA Mode doesn't have time flags, iirc

[BlackMephitis7]

Yea, TA mode has no time traveling.

That's why it would be arguable for different time zone speed runs.
All of the ones I've seen on youtube make sure to not travel through time though.

On the note of incompleteability, I thought the only one was Metallic Madness past, but you can indeed complete it, by running on top of the ceiling similar to running on top of the ceiling in the present version of the stage.
There's no longer the little window to jump through at the end though, so you have to go through becoming tiny Sonic.

The verifiability doesn't become any harder than verifying people's Sonic 2 speed runs, or Sonic 1/3/Knuckles whatever...
Plus a screen shot doesn't rule out tool assisted/save stated speed runs. (these things didn't exist much when I submitted my first times for Sonic 2 way back when)

I think it downplays the worth of Sonic CD to only count the stages they presented to us in Time Attack mode.
Plus it would give some validity to playing the US Sonic CD for speed runs, since you can press start, then A to reset the level at the cost of a life.
JP Sonic CD would be a real bitch to time attack different time zones with.

Also, Sonic CD, after you beat a level you warped to with level select, you return to the title screen.
So it seems the intended way to time attack the different time zones.



Just to make myself crystal clear, I mean there would be four different time stats to submit for Palmtree Panic Act 1

PP A1 Past
PP A1 Present
PP A1 Bad Future
PP A1 Good Future

I don't mean beating PPA1 in the future, and then submitting the stat for the Present version of the stage, which is right now the only one we can submit times for.

[Luxray]

Yea, TA mode has no time traveling.

Shows how much i know about SCD. Someone who knows the game or a rules comittee person continues this discussion >_>

[BlackMephitis7]

I do like the idea of there being more, new (to me) SCD to play, along with new routes to learn and whatnot

Well, I certainly hear no objections to the benefits of adding this in.

[Aitamen]

I PM'd SonicAD (our site head) about it and he said he liked the idea and had wanted to.  I'm not sure if that means it's happening or not, but it has been brought to his attention.  At this point, there's no real reason to object to it (I didn't know SCD had an L-select code, honestly) and it looks more like it's going to be more charts to add at some point, as opposed to a "does it deserve to be on the site" argument.  If it's a relatively-easy-to-track game, then it'll be added and whatnot.

I wonder if it's time to start stat-hoarding again ^_^

EDIT: so I started working on this, and I found that the beginning to PP1 is the same in all three alternate time zones (and thus, the fastest time for each will be ~the same, because there's a speedshoe immediately in front of you).  It also has graphic bugs, unsurprisingly. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf-mT1CkrNQ video of TA for it

As I don't believe any of these are directly accessable from the game (it's impossible to start in anything but the present, correct?) I'm going to assume they won't be on the charts?  I'm not sure.

[maggot]

All good/bad future levels are equal, except for the enemies (good future has no enemies - that's why it's called "good future" after all) and very few scenario traps (like the bubbles on CC3 and the shock grids on WW1 and 2).
Because they're so alike, I don't think it should have good future and bad future status, just "future" ones.

As for the rest, there's minor modifications between past-present-future levels, but some of them changes the gameplay completely (see QQ1 and MM1 for fully understanding). So, adding past-future stats sounds like a good idea for me.


And by the way, some messing around I did when the wall glitch was discovered, just for the fun of it. Maybe now it'll be useful!

[Aitamen]

^like I showed in the vid I linked? heh

[maggot]

precisely.

[Aitamen]

didn't beat your time, but got closer, heh

also, I was wrong, Past's box is a little lower, and consequently, so is it's time

more charts to fill, more charts to fill, TRA LA LA!

[bertin]

I think what might have this from being added before was that you get sent to the Title Screen if you end up time traveling while playing in Level Select. Don't get me wrong I support this to the fullest.

[Aitamen]

^that'll invalidate the run, obviously, heh.

avoiding time traveling is, sure, a little annoying when it screws a perfect run, but whatever... I like more charts!

[maggot]

MORE
CHARTS
FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOOD WILL

[BlackMephitis7]

Wait, is zipping actually allowed in legit speed runs?
: (
Sad as sad could be you know...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Umt-qwKp-c

Also, there are actual differences between good and bad future stages.
Apart from the obvious one, no enemies in good futures...this also messes with time attacking, since you can't bust enemies to help your speed.

Both futures should be stat-able.
As this video proves, there are different times achievable for both, and this video does highlight some of the differences, apart from enemies.

[Aitamen]

why wouldn't zipping be allowed in legit speedruns?

if it's doable on console, with standard equipment, it's legit, plain as day.

Some things are outlawed when they go infinite (thus eliminating any competition value), but for the most part, if you can do it, and it's faster, do it.

this is done because there's no way to put in arbitrary limits... some people think that zipping is a glitch, but it's no more intended then, say, loop jumping, or slope jumping, or anything else that we do... where do we draw a line?

when it stops competition.

[BlackMephitis7]

I don't see how zipping doesn't stop competition, but that's none of my business/not why I'm here.
Can all five versions of Sonic CD zip like that?
(Mega CD, Sega CD, PC, GameCube, PS2)

As long as zipping doesn't keep us from having all four variations of a stage for the stats submissions.

[Aitamen]

No, not all forms of SCD can zip.  Afaik, only the Sega/MegaCD versions and the PC port can, but I'm not sure about the port, tbqh.

Just like you can't get 3'35 CC3 if you're playing on the gamecube, because there's a ceiling implemented that wasn't there previously.

Anyway, I got a pseudo-confirmation from SonicAD via IRC that went as follows:

[11:33] <Aitamen> so are charts going up for certain?
[11:34] <SonicAD> I'm going to try to do it soon
...
[11:36] <SonicAD> it will get done though

Hope I made ya smile ^_^

[BlackMephitis7]

I wasn't able to get 3 seconds in CC3 on my Sega CD copy either.
Could you explain to me how to trick it out right?

I just barely don't get up there it seems.

You certainly made me smile, I hope I'll get to see more awe inspiring paths through levels. (without zipping, since I don't know how to do that either...I wonder if there's a place that teaches you these things?)

[maggot]

\o/

[bertin]

I wasn't able to get 3 seconds in CC3 on my Sega CD copy either.
Could you explain to me how to trick it out right?

I just barely don't get up there it seems.

You certainly made me smile, I hope I'll get to see more awe inspiring paths through levels. (without zipping, since I don't know how to do that either...I wonder if there's a place that teaches you these things?)

You jump after you do a spindash/peelout on the slope to skip the whole stage IIRC

No, not all forms of SCD can zip.  Afaik, only the Sega/MegaCD versions and the PC port can, but I'm not sure about the port, tbqh.

Just like you can't get 3'35 CC3 if you're playing on the gamecube, because there's a ceiling implemented that wasn't there previously.

Anyway, I got a pseudo-confirmation from SonicAD via IRC that went as follows:

[11:33] <Aitamen> so are charts going up for certain?
[11:34] <SonicAD> I'm going to try to do it soon
...
[11:36] <SonicAD> it will get done though

Hope I made ya smile ^_^

Cool story bro!!

[BlackMephitis7]

Yea, in CC3, I'm jumping on the slop after the peel out...and I just barely can't make it.

I must have tried it over a hundred times.
I am using the original Sega CD version.

On hardware, if that makes a difference.

[Aitamen]

I'll record it showing input, at some point... or you can go check the TAS here.

if you play it back in an emulator, you can turn on "show input" and see exactly what the controller's doing...

Also, there's no known difference between the hardware and emulation, or at least there's not supposed to be.

Some people have different abilities with controller vs. keyboard (my spindash is slower, but my control is more accurate with a keyboard, for example.)

anyway, I have stats for every zone, yay!

[BlackMephitis7]

I have the AVI of that TAS.
I couldn't figure out how to watch the GMV of it though.

How would I go about watching the emulator video file?

[Aitamen]

get a copy of gens rerecording (You can get it from tas videos, or from the net... the newest ones are *usually* fully backwards compatible, but if it's not, you may have to get an older version)

load up the ROM image (usually .bin + MP3 or other image), and run the movie

there's more detailed stuff in the comments of the TAS submission here for what to use specifically (around where it talks about desync).

You'll also need bios files for it to run a SegaCD game, if you don't have them already.

Also, you could join us in chat, via mIRC or your preferred IRC client.  Learning the ins and outs of IRC can be a little confusing, but  google helps plenty... that's how most of us chat most of the time.