[Thorn]

If you haven't heard the news, a new Sonic game was "announced" today, if you could call a teaser and a project name an announcement. GameSpot's left us this, which says volumes:
1. It's coming in 2010. Two years between mainstream games is pretty typical... but this year, we haven't heard of any side titles like the Storybook Series or the Rush series. There's Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games, but that's it. Almost all resources seem to be going to this new title. EDIT: Oh wait, Sonic & Sega All Stars Racing... but that's kind of the same deal, what with not being developed exclusively by Sonic Team. Also, note that Unleashed came out seven months after its announcement in April (the March leak doesn't count >_>), so perhaps this one will be out in the first half of next year? Clearly that's not much to go on, but it does seem to have been announced too soon for the usual pre-Christmas release.
2. It's supposedly entirely 2D. That doesn't necessarily mean a departure from scripted loops and dash pads galore, but Sonic Rush and Sonic Rush Adventure still had their own kind of charm (particularly Sonic Rush Adventure, which cleaned up many of the rough patches in Rush's pit-filled level designs). Truth be told, I can't imagine the boosting moves of these games ever being removed from the series, so I wouldn't expect Sonic 4, but hey, it's 2D, so you are given permission to squee.
3. It's codenamed "Project Needlemouse". Make of that what you will.

For those of you looking to get a 2D Sonic fix in the meantime, Sonic Retro's just ended the submission period for their Annual Sonic Hacking Contest. You can head on over to their hacking forum to see what's new this year, or if you're truly feeling lazy, visit HackTube at SSRG, where you can play submitted hacks via a Java-based emulator (note that hacks that save data must be downloaded to your PC for use in a standalone emulator in order to work).


New member registration is still down. E-mail gerbilsoft at verizon dot net with a desired username to create an account.


SonicAD wants to remind you all that Sonic Adventure 2 Sonic Advance Sonic 3 & Knuckles, as Knuckles Sonic 3D Blast Sonic Heroes - Chaotix will be featured this Saturday night at 7pm EDT for TSC Race Night. It's gonna be pwn, y'all, so join the chatroom and play.

[P.P.A.]

Spoiler: It will suck. Also in after BACK TO THE ROOTS and in before Sonic Rush 4. Did I mention "speed returns" really worries me? :(

EDIT: Unless this image was true, then I would become excited. (It be noted that I never played Sonic Genesis.)

[Parax]

inb4 S2HD?

[Crowbar]

I AM SKEPTICAL ABOUT THIS

[Bilan]

MAY I JOIN YOU IN YOUR SKEPTICISM?

[EngiNerd]

I'm going to have to counter the skepticism here - that trailer was the closest any video has ever gotten me to actually drooling.
I also wish there was a larger version of PPA's third pic - I would SO use that as my new wallpaper....

EDIT: And did NOBODY notice the sounds in that trailer?  IIRC, most of the sound effects are from Sonic 1, including the SEGA chant at the beginning.  I know it could be gimmicky, but that raises my hopes a LOT.

[Thorn]

Wow, nothing more than a teaser -- not even a trailer, but a teaser which doesn't show anything about the game other than what's in the first post -- and there's already more skepticism than curiosity. What the hell does Sonic Team have to show you to get some love? Do I think they've had a bad track record as of late? Yes. Do I think that a thirty-second teaser needs to be met with "zomg guys I am unsure about this?" No. While I know that half of you are probably kidding around because you do this every time, I feel like I have to dime PPA out in particular because he has this attitude every time a game contains a move for Sonic that isn't the Spin Attack.

I know that this is my opinion, but I feel like I have to point out that unless this game is meant to be Sonic 4 HD, there is no way in hell that Sonic Team would drop the boost mechanic. The daytime stages of Unleashed were the main thing that reviewers liked, and Rush and Rush Adventure got relatively high reviews and were loved by most fans; for Sonic Team to ditch that would be suicide, and that's why OMG SPEED is advertised in the teaser. If you're looking for Sonic 4, get your ass over to Retro, grab SonED2, and make it.

Also, I've done some poking through the thread for this on Retro. This has popped up, and while I don't know if it's real or not, it's creepy interesting I-don't-know-what-it-is. Note that the file name is Concept Art, so don't put too much faith in it. There are people trying to treat each section as a symbol and making messages out of it... I'd make sure it's real first. Somebody said the page was hosted by DreamHost, which is kind of strange if true. EDIT: SEGA's made an official statement that this site is NOT related to Project Needlemouse in any way, according to TSSZ.

I'm not orgasming to the news of this game, nor am I disparaging it. I'm just very, VERY curious.

[Alondite]

Well Thorn, given Sonic Teams recent track-record, it's hard not to be skeptical. However, I think it's more of a reason to get excited about than anything they have done in the last decade. Also that little detail that PPA (and likely many others) noticed I think is fairly significant and reason enough in itself to be at least a little excited.

[P.P.A.]

This

Hey, you know how the kids like teaser sites with no information in them?

http://www.needlemouse.com/

http://whois.domaintools.com/needlemouse.com
http://whois.domaintools.com/sega.com
http://whois.domaintools.com/sonic-unleashed.com

I don't know. Doesn't look like SEGA registered this. Could be wrong though.

Also knowing SEGA's track record everything new they make is a reason to be sceptical. They haven't produced a decent game in half a decade, and with every new one they're just digging their graves deeper. They bring up this "BACK TO THE ROOTS"-nonsense every time they make a new game and afterwards it ends up shooting you through pre-scripted loops with boost moves while transforming into a werewolf knight and simultaneously controlling Black Doom to press switches and kill Robotnik's children. Plus in this teaser they also mentioned speed and seeing how fast Sonic was dashing around there, this might be a bad omen.
Hailing the usage of classic sounds also seems to be worth nothing; to me it rather seems like SEGA is not clutching every straw available to somehow appease to their fading old fanbase; and since they're unable to do so through their own terrible new games they're now resorting to trying to awaken feelings of nostalgia in a desperate attempt to expel the understandably omnipresent apathetic stance towards new Sonic games and get at least a bit of anticipation for their newest pile of digitalised feces.

[Thorn]

^ Of course they mention speed, it's the series' main selling point. >_> Even in the Genesis days it was the main bit of PR that got tossed around: ever see the Sonic 3 commercial on Sonic Jam? :P

Unleashed failed from a review standpoint but was a great success from the fan's point of view, particularly with people choosing a favorite version instead of saying that the entire game sucked. As long as Sonic Team is keeping the fans happy, the fans will keep spending.

I already mentioned that the Needlemouse page looked a bit suspect; don't quite just one word of my post because that makes me look dumb. :(

Since you think Sonic Team can't make a game without a gimmick like a werewolf or a knight, I'll play your little game... here's my "prediction" as to how info on this game will seep out to the public:
1. Current speculation continues for a month. Reactions struggle to find the medium between outright disparaging and pointless optimism.
2. A promo pic of the game is released. Sonic is visible in the foreground, and a humongous blue foot is visible behind him. A zoomed out pic is released later, revealing that this game allows you to play as kaiju Sonic, stomping through evil cities built by Eggman and smashing them to bits. Fans' jaws simultaneously hit the floor for all of the wrong reasons. The ensuing weeping can be heard from space. (reference: this bit of Unleashed's reveal and the public's reaction to it)
3. A trailer is released of normal Sonic play. It's entirely 2D, with new enemies, platforming, and lots of speed. The fans forget the kaiju existed for a bit and cry happy tears because it is just that beautiful. Bits of kaiju play are shown at a public game expo, but only a few seconds at a time, so nobody reacts to it.
4. The game is released. The Sonic gameplay is hailed as a return to form. The kaiju play pleases some and makes others groan, but it's typically not regarded as badly as it was upon reveal. Reviews range from GameSpot and IGN's ratings of 2.9, where the kaiju play RUINED SONIC FOREVER, and Nintendo Power's rating of 8.0, because it's Sonic and Sonic always scores around 8. The end of the game will see this mysterious kaiju power lost to all time because Sonic, like always, is scared of it since power makes people evil by default.

I'll be screaming "in your face!" a few months from now when that all comes true. :o

[P.P.A.]

Thorn spends too much time at Retro (18 pages of enthusiastic anticipation and excited curiosity, compare to The GHZ's collective shrug and usual biting sarcastic remarks and X-CulT's two graphic images of people vomiting; lolretro). He's becoming optimistic about new Sonic games and actually defends the franchise.

Also I only quoted that one word because I saw that on Retro everyone already wildly speculated over it (lolretro) so I wanted to just get it across that it's probably fake anyway before anyone here starts bothering. :(

[Alondite]

Lol Thorn. So basically it will be Sonic Unleashed 2? Also, speaking about SU...you said it was considered a success by fans...but WHICH fans? The newcomers who jumped in with Adventure/2 or the ones who have been playing since the original Genesis game? It seems to me that the older fans do not consider SU a success by any stretch of the word.  To me, Sonic CD was the last good Sonic game. Advance 1 was serviceable, but it lacked the intangible "charm" I suppose of the Genesis titles.

The 3D are noticeably more buggy, to an extent that they really seem like unfinished games. I can't tell you how many times I've fallen through the floor, or had the camera flip around when I'm trying to jump to a platform or something, or have get caught on something or lose sight of Sonic altogether. I mean 3D camera has been done damn near perfectly before Adventure was even released, so there's no excuse. And then the poor collision. I've had Sonic get caught up on the FLOOR in EVERY major 3D Sonic game. Why? And he gets caught up on walls too. Again, why? And then there's the general level design. This is like game design 101: DO NOT DESIGN LEVELS THAT RELY ON SPOTTY GAME MECHANICS. The light dash doesn't always work right, and the homing attack often just shoots you straight ahead to your death, which brings up another point: Floating levels. Why do so many of the levels float in midair? Falling to your death should NOT be the hazard causing most of your deaths, especially when the controls are iffy and the camera even worse. What happened to death from enemies and spikes and other random level gimmicks? I could fucking write a Masters thesis on why 3D Sonics are so awful, but I cba soooo I'm going to move on.

PPA brings up a good point regarding the speed. I'm aware that Sonic's whole idea has been about speed...but since when have the games ever played fast? Sure, Sonic 1 was fast.....compared to Mario. It was more about fluid level design than pure speed. Sure, there were moments when it cranked along, but mostly it was about precise platforming and fluid level design than anything. And the levels were broken up really well. The "speed" and platforming sections were mixed well throughout. Some levels did away with speed altogether in favor of more hazard-based design. Modern Sonic games might as well just be on rails. They play like an interactive roller coaster, and it's just not fun.


 Boosting IMO has ruined Sonic. Any gameplay element that make any elements of the game redundant or pointless is very, very bad game design. Boosting does just that. Enemies are merely fodder to fill your boost gauge. You just run right through them. On top of that they are boring and uninspired. It also ruin other aspects, like alternate routes. Remember getting that high route that had something special by going faster off a ramp? Boosting ruined that, because it instantly shoots you up to max speed, so what is the point of even having the low roads if you can easily hit the high road without fail every time? Worse than that though, is that boosting has made the game about speed, and as a result, the tight platforming from Genesis games is all but gone, and what's a platformer without strong platforming? I'll tell you:Shit.

</rant>

[Parax]

   Domain Name: needlemouse.com

   Registrant Contact:
      needlemouse.com Private Registrant         needlemouse.com@proxy.dreamhost.com
      A Happy DreamHost Customer
      417 Associated Rd #324
      Brea, CA 92821
      US
      +1.2139471032

   Administrative Contact:
      [...]

   Technical Contact:
      [...]

   Billing Contact:
      [...]

   Record created on 2009-08-21 17:53:54.
   Record expires on 2010-08-21 17:53:54.

that "record created on 2009-08-21" bit seems to make the site more credible unless there's something about this I'm misunderstanding...

[Rolken]

Wow, nothing more than a teaser -- not even a trailer, but a teaser which doesn't show anything about the game other than what's in the first post -- and there's already more skepticism than curiosity. What the hell does Sonic Team have to show you to get some love?

Well, they could show the game.

Just saying.

[douglas]

Wow, nothing more than a teaser -- not even a trailer, but a teaser which doesn't show anything about the game other than what's in the first post -- and there's already more skepticism than curiosity. What the hell does Sonic Team have to show you to get some love?

Well, they could show the game.

Just saying.

Quite so.  I really can't be doing with all this viral-hype-marketing teased out over a year or longer.  Want my attention?  Blow me away with an awesome demo, preferably that I can get my hands on myself.

[Thorn]

According to TSSZ, www.needlemouse.com is NOT related to Project Needlemouse. You can all breathe easy now, knowing that Tim Burton is not designing levels. :P

[P.P.A.]

All those 13 pages of discussion on Retro are worth nothing now!

[Selphos]

You mean 18?

Anyway I'm not going to care about this until I see some decent footage. For now it's just a "well that looks cool but what the hell is it supposed to mean" for me.

[Stefan]

I can't tell you how many times I've fallen through the floor, or had the camera flip around when I'm trying to jump to a platform or something, or have get caught on something or lose sight of Sonic altogether. I mean 3D camera has been done damn near perfectly before Adventure was even released, so there's no excuse.

I have fallen through the floor in sa2 in a grand total of two places. One was in City Escape, in the truck section, where I was lightdashing the rings and shot through the floor. The other was in metal harbor, where I was trying to cut the somersault to pulley section as short as possible, and glitched some how. I've racked up at least 300 hours on that game.

Do you know why adventure's camera was worse than other games with a 3d camera? That speed thing we were talking about. Go ahead and use that as an argument against speed, if you want, but don't blame it on poor development when it is entirely the result of an UNRELENTING ABILITY to go -wherever you want-. That freedom to platform wherever you want in sadx (The same thing you herald in 2d sonic) is the heart of the issue.

DO NOT DESIGN LEVELS THAT RELY ON SPOTTY GAME MECHANICS.

Barrel of Doom. :D

PPA brings up a good point regarding the speed. I'm aware that Sonic's whole idea has been about speed...but since when have the games ever played fast?

When have sonic games played fast... How about in sonic cd, where you had spindash and peelout? That failing, how about the introduction of the spindash in sonic 2? Don't tell me chemical plant had a fluid level design, it was -all- about rolling down hills, going through pipes, and then a couple platforming sections over water at the end. The level as a whole was like advance 2... just boosting along, speed. How about sonic 3, which introduced the "get up to speed instantly" fire shield? Sounds like... a boost to me. I have no doubts that the fire shield was the predecessor to the rush and unleashed boost.

 

Boosting IMO has ruined Sonic.

See: Fire shield

Any gameplay element that make any elements of the game redundant or pointless is very, very bad game design. Boosting does just that. Enemies are merely fodder to fill your boost gauge. You just run right through them. On top of that they are boring and uninspired. It also ruin other aspects, like alternate routes. Remember getting that high route that had something special by going faster off a ramp? Boosting ruined that, because it instantly shoots you up to max speed, so what is the point of even having the low roads if you can easily hit the high road without fail every time?

What! Even excepting the obvious parallels to be drawn here with the fire shield, any gameplay element that makes others redundant is bad design? You could make the argument that JUMPING makes enemies redundant. how about the SPINDASH? the ROLL? And -what--! There were parts in 2d sonic games where you went to a higher route to get a speedup ramp? I'm not aware of these? I remember going to higher routes to get things like 1ups and rings and easier routes, things that the boost mechanic does not destroy.

Some of your points are valid, but I really hate the general critique of all 3d sonic games, especially those I consider to have hit the spot (sonic adventure 2)

[Aitamen]

Stef: permanant FShield seems bad to me, honestly, when you make the parallel... also, FShield doesn't set your speed to max, unless I'm mistaken.

my critique on 3D sonic is based on heroes/Shadow/SADC, as I've stated before, and I've gone through at least 100 deaths for various reasons NOT related to my making mistakes or not knowing a zone...  like springs in SHeroes throwing me to my doom for no apparant reason (PS2 version ftfl)

anyway, I remain highly optomistic about S2010, and look forward to seeing something awesome come out of it.

[Alondite]

I have fallen through the floor in sa2 in a grand total of two places. One was in City Escape, in the truck section, where I was lightdashing the rings and shot through the floor. The other was in metal harbor, where I was trying to cut the somersault to pulley section as short as possible, and glitched some how. I've racked up at least 300 hours on that game.

Ok, even falling through a floor ONCE is inexcusable. You know how many times I've fallen through the floor in every 3D game other than Sonic? A grand total of ZERO.  It's like we hold Sonic at a lower standard and just accept MAJOR flaws like collision that is so bad that you actually fall through the level

Do you know why adventure's camera was worse than other games with a 3d camera? That speed thing we were talking about. Go ahead and use that as an argument against speed, if you want, but don't blame it on poor development when it is entirely the result of an UNRELENTING ABILITY to go -wherever you want-. That freedom to platform wherever you want in sadx (The same thing you herald in 2d sonic) is the heart of the issue.

It's not "wherever you want." The levels are linear.  Galaxy may not have the speed of Sonic, but the platforming is far complex and the camera is far superior.  Also understand that the speed in Sonic is NOT the cause for the bad camera, because the camera is always centered behind him in faster sections (aside from "scripted" portions). It's when you slow down and have to move more carefully that the camera screws you over.


When have sonic games played fast... How about in sonic cd, where you had spindash and peelout? That failing, how about the introduction of the spindash in sonic 2? Don't tell me chemical plant had a fluid level design, it was -all- about rolling down hills, going through pipes, and then a couple platforming sections over water at the end. The level as a whole was like advance 2... just boosting along, speed. How about sonic 3, which introduced the "get up to speed instantly" fire shield? Sounds like... a boost to me. I have no doubts that the fire shield was the predecessor to the rush and unleashed boost.

But Sonic never moved as fast as he does in Rush or Unleashed.  When going that fast you can't expect the player to react fast enough to add more complex level designs, so they end up being roller coasters.  Spindash fixed the problem of getting stuck at the bottom of a ramp for one, and it was a way to get to high speed quickly, but again, it still was nowhere near the speed of the modern games. As for CPZ....you picked one level from one game. It's called VARIATION. I'm not saying that there isn't a place for levels like those, but not EVERY LEVEL. Oh and the Fire Shield didn't keep you locked at top speed while performing it, Boosting does. How useful is the Fire Shield dash for picking up speed when running downhill? Now if you know what's at the bottom of the hill and want to just skip it, then sure, just dash and skip the hill. Or how about when going up? When boosting all you have to do is hold one button and you maintain top speed, with the Fire Shield you have to do it repeatedly, because it only GETS you to top speed, it doesn't keep you there. On top of that it's just more active than holding a button, and is just a more interesting mechanic.

What! Even excepting the obvious parallels to be drawn here with the fire shield, any gameplay element that makes others redundant is bad design? You could make the argument that JUMPING makes enemies redundant. how about the SPINDASH? the ROLL? And -what--! There were parts in 2d sonic games where you went to a higher route to get a speedup ramp? I'm not aware of these? I remember going to higher routes to get things like 1ups and rings and easier routes, things that the boost mechanic does not destroy.

How does jumping make enemies redundant? You still have to JUMP over them, which still makes them an obstacle. And with some enemies it's not as simple as just jumping over them (unlke the newer games which recycle the exact same enemies over and over and you can just hold boost and run through them. Yay fun.) As for that last bit...I think you misread me or something. I said that you had to get up to speed to hit the ramp that would launch you up to to the location of a 1up or other such goody, now all you have to do is push a few buttons in succession or just boost up effortlessly.

Some of your points are valid, but I really hate the general critique of all 3d sonic games, especially those I consider to have hit the spot (sonic adventure 2)

All 3D Sonics suffer from most of the same issues, so I can lump them together. Maybe if Sonic Team would pull their heads out of their asses and make a 3D game that isn't plagued by mechanical and design flaws I will stop being so critical.

I'm interested to know what the redeeming qualities of 3D Sonics are, what advantages they have over the 2D games and why the new mechanics and design direction are better.

[Stefan]

Ok, even falling through a floor ONCE is inexcusable. You know how many times I've fallen through the floor in every 3D game other than Sonic? A grand total of ZERO.  It's like we hold Sonic at a lower standard and just accept MAJOR flaws like collision that is so bad that you actually fall through the level

In the past couple weeks I've fallen through a floor in both Fallout 3 and Team Fortress 2, and glitched outside of a wall in Portal. This is not an issue that only plagues sonic, and my point is that in over 300 hours, experiencing 2 out of bounds glitches (one while intentionally trying to push the game to its limits) is hardly reason for huge concern. Within my first COUPLE HOURS of playing s3&k, I fell through the rising sand in sandopolis 2, and had to wait for a time over. I'm not kidding. You're holding 3d sonic accountable for a problem that isn't singularly in 3d sonic, which is a poor excuse for logic.

It's not "wherever you want." The levels are linear.  Galaxy may not have the speed of Sonic, but the platforming is far complex and the camera is far superior.  Also understand that the speed in Sonic is NOT the cause for the bad camera, because the camera is always centered behind him in faster sections (aside from "scripted" portions). It's when you slow down and have to move more carefully that the camera screws you over.

two things here: one, sonic adventure dx is far more open than the rest of the 3d sonic titles, and it's the one I quoted. On levels like speed highway and red mountain, you always have several different ways to go, and the levels are very open. Those are also the levels I experience the most camera screw on.

And I think it's pretty clear my point about "speed causing camera problems" to be correct. Whether or not that is during the fast sections is not the point; the point here is that because the camera is explicitly designed for speedier gameplay, slowing down becomes an issue. IE, the speed causes the camera problems.

But Sonic never moved as fast as he does in Rush or Unleashed.  When going that fast you can't expect the player to react fast enough to add more complex level designs, so they end up being roller coasters.  Spindash fixed the problem of getting stuck at the bottom of a ramp for one, and it was a way to get to high speed quickly, but again, it still was nowhere near the speed of the modern games. As for CPZ....you picked one level from one game. It's called VARIATION. I'm not saying that there isn't a place for levels like those, but not EVERY LEVEL. Oh and the Fire Shield didn't keep you locked at top speed while performing it, Boosting does. How useful is the Fire Shield dash for picking up speed when running downhill? Now if you know what's at the bottom of the hill and want to just skip it, then sure, just dash and skip the hill. Or how about when going up? When boosting all you have to do is hold one button and you maintain top speed, with the Fire Shield you have to do it repeatedly, because it only GETS you to top speed, it doesn't keep you there. On top of that it's just more active than holding a button, and is just a more interesting mechanic.

But boosting isn't instant win! You have to charge up the meter! Fire shield has no meter, and you can theoretically never stop fire shielding. it, in fact, is more broken than the boost!

How does jumping make enemies redundant? You still have to JUMP over them, which still makes them an obstacle. And with some enemies it's not as simple as just jumping over them (unlke the newer games which recycle the exact same enemies over and over and you can just hold boost and run through them. Yay fun.) As for that last bit...I think you misread me or something. I said that you had to get up to speed to hit the ramp that would launch you up to to the location of a 1up or other such goody, now all you have to do is push a few buttons in succession or just boost up effortlessly.

How does boosting make enemies redundant? You still have to have gotten a boost meter and make sure you boost right, which still makes them an obstacle. And with some enemies it's not as simple as boosting into them (unlike the older games where every variation of a spin attack kills every enemy over and over and you can just spin and roll through them. Yay fun.)

And yeah, I'll concede that I misread what you said. Sorry. Though your description of reaching alternate routes is hardly perfect.

I'm interested to know what the redeeming qualities of 3D Sonics are, what advantages they have over the 2D games and why the new mechanics and design direction are better.

Being in three dimensions allows for more precise control and more vast environments (even if they are linear). That's ultimately the underlying factor for me in liking the two 3d sonic games that I like (which are sonic adventure and sonic adventure 2). I don't feel the need to defend heroes, shadow, unleashed, and 06, because I didn't like them. But adventure and adventure 2 had such a great blend of precise control (sonic goes where you tell him to) and speed that it reeled me in.

[Alondite]

In the past couple weeks I've fallen through a floor in both Fallout 3 and Team Fortress 2, and glitched outside of a wall in Portal. This is not an issue that only plagues sonic, and my point is that in over 300 hours, experiencing 2 out of bounds glitches (one while intentionally trying to push the game to its limits) is hardly reason for huge concern. Within my first COUPLE HOURS of playing s3&k, I fell through the rising sand in sandopolis 2, and had to wait for a time over. I'm not kidding. You're holding 3d sonic accountable for a problem that isn't singularly in 3d sonic, which is a poor excuse for logic.

Hm...Well I have AT LEAST 2 or more major collision issues PER SITTING in Both SADX and SA2. SADX I ALWAYS fall through the floor before the whale section. In fact, I can't think of a time I haven't. As for S3K, I've never had a collision issue beyond a hitch while running uphill. I'm aware that it's not a problem exclusive to Sonic, but why do we overlook it in Sonic and not other games like it's ok?

two things here: one, sonic adventure dx is far more open than the rest of the 3d sonic titles, and it's the one I quoted. On levels like speed highway and red mountain, you always have several different ways to go, and the levels are very open. Those are also the levels I experience the most camera screw on.

And I think it's pretty clear my point about "speed causing camera problems" to be correct. Whether or not that is during the fast sections is not the point; the point here is that because the camera is explicitly designed for speedier gameplay, slowing down becomes an issue. IE, the speed causes the camera problems.

It's more open, but still fairly linear.  Ok, so the speed is indirectly causing the camera issues. It's not because you're going fast, it's because the camera doesn't work when you don't. That's still bad.

But boosting isn't instant win! You have to charge up the meter! Fire shield has no meter, and you can theoretically never stop fire shielding. it, in fact, is more broken than the boost!

Because the boost gauge fills so quickly and easily. It's almost impossible to not be able to boost through an entire level. And when boosting, you move so fast that the levels become "hold right and win." Though  admit, they do occasionally throw in a pit that requires jumping over (or onto a platform) randomly during long speed stretches without warning, so I guess it's not COMPLETELY "hold right and win."

How does boosting make enemies redundant? You still have to have gotten a boost meter and make sure you boost right, which still makes them an obstacle. And with some enemies it's not as simple as boosting into them (unlike the older games where every variation of a spin attack kills every enemy over and over and you can just spin and roll through them. Yay fun.)

Because the enemies act as nothing but fodder to fill your boost. They aren't a threat. They could just as easily be replaced by a ring box and do the exact same thing, and as I said before, it's almost impossible to not have boost. Also yes, a spin attack will kill just about any enemy, but it's hitting them and not losing your rings that presents the challenge.

And yeah, I'll concede that I misread what you said. Sorry. Though your description of reaching alternate routes is hardly perfect.

Yeah the wording was clumsy.

Being in three dimensions allows for more precise control and more vast environments (even if they are linear). That's ultimately the underlying factor for me in liking the two 3d sonic games that I like (which are sonic adventure and sonic adventure 2). I don't feel the need to defend heroes, shadow, unleashed, and 06, because I didn't like them. But adventure and adventure 2 had such a great blend of precise control (sonic goes where you tell him to) and speed that it reeled me in.

More precise control? I would say that pixel-perfect 2D is pre precise than invisible collision boxes in 3D. As for vast environments, they can be, but Sonic's aren't. They are generally sparse, boring, frequently floating levels against a static (and often 2D) background. The 2D games by coparison feature lush, complex, artistically appealing level designs. As for speed and precise control, play F-Zero GX if you want an idea of how it plays when done properly.

[Selphos]

wall

More precise control? I would say that pixel-perfect 2D is pre precise than invisible collision boxes in 3D. As for vast environments, they can be, but Sonic's aren't. They are generally sparse, boring, frequently floating levels against a static (and often 2D) background. The 2D games by coparison feature lush, complex, artistically appealing level designs. As for speed and precise control, play F-Zero GX if you want an idea of how it plays when done properly.

Permission to quote "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"?

[Alondite]

Sure, but then I'll go with technical observations. The 3D games are low-poly, have framerate issues and no real lighting effects to speak of. Animations often get hitched up as well.

[Rolken]

I'm pretty sure Stefan loses by default for trying to draw an equivalence between the glitchiness of Sonic Adventure and Portal and Fallout 3.

Too bad you BOTH lose by default for yet another tl;dr 2D vs 3D debate. I mean, seriously?

[oldskoolgamer101]

The 2D vs 3D debate is exasperating and boils down to a developer sucking ass, plain and simple. Sonic Team/Dimps/whatever other ****wit company that wants to keep twanging itself instead of working with the ideal formula for the franchise will probably just stuff things up again with unwanted crap that everyone except the drug addicts working for the company can see is a problem.

Just waiting for the review score this time, can't be stuffed feeling even slightly optimistic about Sonic anymore.

[Stefan]

I'm pretty sure Stefan loses by default for trying to draw an equivalence between the glitchiness of Sonic Adventure and Portal and Fallout 3.

I'm pretty sure you lose by default for changing my argument from sonic adventure 2 to sonic adventure.

[Rolken]

Whoops, you're right. Your SA1 argument was that the game was buggy because it was too awesome. I apologize for the confusion.

Do you know why adventure's camera was worse than other games with a 3d camera? That speed thing we were talking about. Go ahead and use that as an argument against speed, if you want, but don't blame it on poor development when it is entirely the result of an UNRELENTING ABILITY to go -wherever you want-. That freedom to platform wherever you want in sadx (The same thing you herald in 2d sonic) is the heart of the issue.

[Stefan]

My sa1 argument was that the -camera- sucks because sa1 introduced -new elements to 3d games-, namely, the tools to both go extremely fast and in very open directions.

Sa1 is extremely glitchy, and I don't plan on defending those glitches., and never have made an argument defending those glitches, quite to the contrary of whatever ignorant 3d fanboy you're making me out to be, steadfast in how perfect the games were.