[Thorn]

This will be a LONG post and will ask for a well-thought-out, detailed reply. If you are incapable of either of these things, please click here to leave the topic.

So I don't know if I'd like to wedge another tournament or league in the two/three week timespan between flyby's current league and summer league, but I can't figure out what the hell people are looking for in a tournaleague, so... yeah. The tournaments flopped, the marathon started with about 30 interested people and fell down to 10 or so after a half-hour (and ended in a week of drama), RPG's league flourished before the challenges became batshit bonkers and everybody quit, and flyby has managed to rope in 28 people with hers (RPG is on the list for said league but has told me he's not competing).... and for all of these cases, I don't know why they ended as they did.

So for the sake of having a tournaleague actually run start to finish... with people still interested by the end... without drama, I'm going to ask questions based on formats we've already tried and on formats we haven't tried. I wish polls on SMF forums allowed for multiple options, but they don't, so I'm typing everything out and asking for replies. Meh. You don't have to restrain yourself to picking one of the listed choices in the questions -- mix them, make your own, say you'd be fine with several of the choices. Thing about if you were the player in each circumstance, and how much you'd enjoy the rulings.

All said and done, this could provide a standardized competition format on TSC... or just complicate things. :P


1. How should competitors earn points throughout the tournaleague?
Earn points solely on performance relative to other players (2 votes: Shadowfan, mike)
- e.g. 1:52:09 earns 10 points, 1:52:10 earns 8 points, 2:05:46 earns 6 points despite being far off 2nd place.
- Closest method to the workings of the TSC Charts.
Earn points for reaching a specified target, and/or extra points for over-target performance in set intervals
- 1:52:09 likely does not earn more points than 1:52:10... somewhat more fair, somewhat unfair.
- Times separated by a small amount on opposite sides of these intervals earn different points, so the intervals should be stated in advance so that competitors can plan around this.
- All players who fall below target are rated equally... fair in that one bad challenge is forgiven, unfair in that all below-target players are considered equal despite performance.
Earn points for reaching a target and/or extra points for over-target performance, AND earn points for performance relative to others (1 vote: Thorn)
- Evens out the issue of treating all below-target competitors equally, but also raises the issue of the worth of 1:52:09 vs. 1:52:10.

2. How should a winner be determined, or how should winners be determined?
Most points accumulated wins (2 votes: Shadowfan, mike)
- Requires no explanation. Simple, straightforward, etc.
Pit the best against each other in a final challenge
- Can allow somebody who fell behind in a challenge he/she was not skilled at to act as if it never happened.
- Can cause somebody with a huge lead to fall to bad luck.
Pit competitors against each other in a final challenge, handicapped based on points accumulated (1 vote: Thorn)
- e.g. The top three (or even the entire group of) competitors compete in a challenge, but each point accumulated subtracts x seconds from your final time.
- Allows for an epic final round that doesn't negate the entire tournaleague's worth, but can cause people who are hopelessly behind to be stuck in an unwinnable competition.

3. What tasks should a tournaleague encompass?
Time Attacking: fastest wins
Time Attacking, Boss Attacking, Score Attacking: best wins (1 vote: Shadowfan)
Ring Attacking, Item Attacking, or other Collectable Attacking: most wins
Collecting a set amount of something: fastest wins, or most wins with ties broken by time taken
All of the above (2 votes: mike, Thorn)

4. What levels should a tournaleague encompass?
Any game on TSC, adjusted to avoid forcing people to play games he/she can't access (1 vote: Shadowfan)
- Hey, it got flyby 28 competitors...
Only TSC games where proof can be provided easily
- Keeps BSers in check: you know you've had a nagging feeling you were being jipped at least once. :P
Only popular TSC games
- Draws in the largest audience but makes for dull challenges.
- Rampant memorization required.
TSC games and ROM hacks (2 votes: mike, Thorn)
- Allows for custom levels catered to competition.
- Disallows memorization in certain circumstances, allows it in others.
- Can cause arguments as to how good the tournaleague operator's "taste" in level design is.

5. How should challenges be assigned?
All challenges are detailed in advance, and all players do all challenges in a given amount of time (e.g. a week) (1 vote: mike [although he seems on the fence about multiple challenges with weightings...?])
- No denying this is fair. :P
Challenges are laid out in advance, and each player picks [a] specific challenge(s) to compete in (1 vote: Shadowfan)
- Can lead to challenges never being done over the course of the competition.
- If only one player does a challenge, he/she gets full credit by default...?
Challenges are laid out in advance, and each player picks [a] specific challenge(s) to compete in, then may complete other challenges for extra points (1 vote: Thorn)
- Rewards effort as well as skill, but the exact balance between the worth of the two is subjective.
- A player doing a second challenge that can practice should not be compared against people who did a challenge as soon as they received it, so a target system is needed, with reduced points given for second challenges.
Players are given an amount of time to meet with tournaleague officials to receive a challenge, after which he/she must submit his/her best run within a short time (e.g. an hour)
- Disallows memorization of levels by keeping them secret until the challenge
- Can cause a player to not be able to practice for a challenge he/she is naturally not skilled at (this may be negated by handwaving a bad challenge -- see options in previous questions).
- Requires tournaleague operator to get in touch with several other people to act as officials, so that challenges can be given out and graded when the operator is not present.

6. What forum should they be in? (A minor point, but a point nevertheless.)
Tournament Central (3 votes: Shadowfan, mike, Thorn)
- Currently contains three failed or semi-failed tourneys.
Competition Central
General Sonic
Gaming and Grazing
- Currently contains two leagues, a marathon, and mini-races that eventually started the marathon.

And one last idea that'll probably only work once, so I'm separating it from the list of questions that applies more generally:
The Sonic DIY competition saw 14 acts designed by five or six people in the span of three weeks. If I do run a tournaleague, I'd like to have competitors be able to submit ROM-hacked levels before the tournaleague starts for consideration in challenges, allowing for the designer to get a leg-up on competing. To keep things extremely simple, I'd distribute a tileset I'm using in my hack that's *very* easy to work with, and I'd put out a five-minute video tutorial to show people the ropes. Designing a quick tournaleague act should only take two or three hours (short act + a few bug tests), and I'd do bugfixes and distribute maps to other competitors before the challenge for route planning. I know this is a long shot, but it's a crazy attempt to be different and it'll take relatively little time for a competitor to do something decent and earn an advantage.


So, answer bolded questions above please, and give opinions on the preceding paragraph if you care to.

[Miles9999]

Sorry that you asked for "long, detailed replies", but

and for all of these cases, I don't know why they ended as they did.

Do you seriously not know how the marathon ended up like it did?

[Thorn]

@ Miles: Deliberately ignoring what I asked before asking about all of the drama?

...the marathon started with about 30 interested people and fell down to 10 or so after a half-hour...

Okay, since I'm so naïve, please explain why twenty people dropped out. I know that some people dropped believing they could no longer win, but most of them had that attitude before they even started the marathon, so I don't see why it should have stopped them from finishing. Also, I'm well aware at what made you pissed. What I don't understand is why people who were unaffected by the start time of the marathon had to whine about it for a week afterwards. Enlighten me, please.

Here's your warning: this topic is not your bitching grounds. Further posts in this topic will be edited to suggest that you enjoy self-fellatio. If you want to argue with me, keep it off the forums and take it to a forum PM or an IRC PM so that I may ignore you without the rest of the forum reading around you.

[Bilan]

I started the marathon 62 minutes late and still didnt finish last :D

Read: This post is a placeholder for a real response

[Shadowfan]

I probably won't be able to satisfy your desire for information, however I have some ideas.
1. Points should be distributed by the rank of the competitiors. The 1st place person gets more than the 2nd. Also, the games points should carry some weight. Its more impressive to be in 1st againt 10 competitors than it is to be first with 2 competitors.
2. The person with the most points wins. Although if 1v1 playoffs were involved, give the player with more points in the matchup the opportunity to pick the game/level although both players need to have the game/level unlocked.
3.  Time attacking, score attacking, and boss attacking should be included. Ring attacks should not be included because they can be maxed.
4. Choosing a wide variety of games/levels to include people. Popular and unpopular games alike. Maybe 1 per week for each game.
5.  I believe the challenges should be given to be done in a certain amount of time. Also, there is only 1 set of levels to choose from for the week and players can ellect which of those levels they want to compete in.
6.  Tournament cental

[yse]

This will be a LONG post and will ask for a well-thought-out, detailed reply. If you are incapable of either of these things, please click here to leave the topic.

This will be a LONG, well-thought-out, detailed reply. I promise.

1. How should competitors earn points throughout the tournaleague?

OK, so basically we're looking at whether it's more important to beat your opponents or beat a preset target. I see the merit in both, but I am inclined to lean towards relative performance. Here's my logic:
* At the upper echelons of competition, times are pretty closely clumped at the top anyway. Instead of coming up with arbitrary targets to split them all up, it makes more sense to simply rank them against each other.
* There's an issue with targets that is often overlooked by the players: one needs to have a reasonable understanding of the level in question to be able to set targets. If you're going to have games from right across TSC, it's too much to expect one person to know the nuances of every tournament level.

2. How should a winner be determined, or how should winners be determined?

I think having a final playoff makes the remainder of the tournament pretty worthless, and also probably drags it out longer than it needs to be. Given the attention span of the average TSCer is approximately 33 seconds, we need to keep these things short.

3. What tasks should a tournaleague encompass?

You know my stand on this one... if you don't, see tourney #1. I think there's a place for the batshit insane in a tourney, but (and this is where RPG went wrong) you should at least let people know what they're getting themselves into. Because let's be honest, if you wanted to just time, ring or score attack... that's what TSC's main charts are for.

4. What levels should a tournaleague encompass?

I'm leaning towards the "easy to provide proof" option: apart from the obvious... being easy to provide proof, it doesn't exclude anyone from competing. All you have to do is provide everyone with an emulator and a set of ROMs.

But I wouldn't be consistent with my previous answer if I didn't at least open the door for the use of ROM hacks :P

5. How should challenges be assigned?

If not everyone's doing the same challenges, then weighting them is an issue that needs to be thought through very carefully... number of players, degree of difficulty, etc.

6. What forum should they be in? (A minor point, but a point nevertheless.)

Tournament Central, to justify its continued existence. :P

And one last idea that'll probably only work once, so I'm separating it from the list of questions that applies more generally:

Not entirely sure that level design should be a requisite ability for a Sonic playing tournament, but hey, it's your call.

That wasn't as long as I thought :(

[Thorn]

I appreciate the input, guys. Btw, I said that I was making a long post, I just asked you guys to think and give details instead of "I think this". Shadowfan's post was plenty long; don't run word count on it. :P I'm going to edit everybody's "votes" into the first post (and will add more options if somebody comes up with a new idea).

@ mike: I wasn't mandating all competitors to design part of the competition, I was making it an option for the sake of people getting a leg up if they care to. Thinking it through again, it's sounding more complicated than when I first typed it out, though.

I should probably give my own opinion too for the sake of being told I'm crazy.

1. I prefer earning points both for reaching a target AND for relative rank against others. This only works properly if everybody does every challenge, of course, or at least is given the option to do every task e.g. Tourney 1/2 (that way, semi-laziness equates to a low rank, and total laziness equates to no gain whatsoever). Having points awarded for intervals past the target, e.g. an extra point for every five seconds below target, makes it so that the guy who beats the other by a split second still gets points for being the best, and both he and the person he beat get points (so the second-place guy isn't quite as shafted, but still isn't getting the points he'd get for being the best).

2. I'm going with "pit competitors against each other in a final challenge, handicapped based on points accumulated". Final challenges tend to be longer than the rest and gets into the consistent skill vs. single segment skill debate. There's been an influx of people like werster and DsS that have absolutely insane stats on the charts and in the leagues, but if the marathon is anything to go by, they can still be beaten in a longer run due to errors or taking unnecessary risks. I think this hits both sides of the spectrum (although the majority of the competition is still single-segment).

3. All of the mentioned tasks should be included, but as mike says, the format should be declared BEFORE the competition starts. I have no problem with certain challenges being maxable if they have predefined targets and/or if ties are broken by fastest time.

4. Offical games and hacks should be included (why did I put my opinion as the last choice every time so far?). The official games are there to prevent a lot of whining, and the ROM hacks are partly for a reason I didn't think to list in the pro/con list I gave in the first post: if the competitors don't know the levels, it's harder for them to turn the entire shindig into Zip League.

5. I think I like the idea of being forced to do a challenge and then being able to do others for extra points the best, because it's another way of pitting effort against skill. You decide which one you think you'd be best at, and then do the others for completionist's sake and for points. Reading my thoughts again, I would like the last idea if there was a way of letting people know before the challenge what the task would entail, and then giving the exact task when that alloted time starts; this way, you wouldn't choose one that sounded like you wouldn't be good at it (I think being vague in this department is what shot Tourney 1/2 to the ground).

6. Tournament Central. I have no idea wtf the competitions are doing in Gaming and Grazing, but it seemed like everybody was putting them there for a reason, so I thought I'd ask.