Sonic Central > Rules Revisions
About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Stefan:
Thorn, I have one argument.
Hot Shelter - Gamma.
Thorn:
^ Gamma's time bonus went UP while you executed the trick, and hit a maximum score. This does neither.
Regardless, I've already given up the argument, as it's become FKE+Parax+DsS+Groudon vs. me. They can do what they will with it.
What I do want to know is why it's legit to score scalp in Hill Top in a similar manner, but not Lava Reef. Hell, any level in Sonic Advance 2 lets you score scalp by doing midair actions over and over, and I see no ruling on that.
Stefan:
"^ Gamma's time bonus went UP while you executed the trick, and hit a maximum score. This does neither, so it's not really the same situation: you're trading one type of score bonus for another."
I fail to see your point with gamma's time bonus; my argument is that this case is extremely similar to the HS-G time charts we ended up obsoleting because instituting arbitrary limitations was effectively impossible. Of course the time bonus went up; I'm not comparing HS-G score and these scores, I'm comparing HS-G time and these scores. Either you
a.) Leave it how it is, leaving potential for maximum scores of 99:99:59 and 999999 respectively.
b.) institute arbitrary limits. In the case of HS-G it was you can't hit a switch more than once, you're proposing an -extremely- difficult to word rule about the maximum combo points in a particular region comboed off healed or respawned enemies. This was the HS-G case for several months before we realized that the rule was impossible to enforce, difficult to play effectively, and not stirring competition.
c.) Obsolete the levels with score scalping techniques. This is the current case with HS-G. Keep in mind, it was extremely possible to make a rule imposing a limit on the maximum scalping you can do in the level, but that didn't keep competition or make the chart seem reasonable.
If you impose an arbitrary limit on how much you can scalp from combos in a certain part of a level (each one would have to be individually defined in the rules), then you just get infinite scores up to that point. If you're playing through werehog levels for score, especially on level 1 strength, you're probably not getting a huge time bonus. The lost time for scalping is not going to be too consequential.
Anyway, this situation is entirely similar to HS-G. In HS-G, doing a particular, entirely innocent, unavoidable action repeatedly provided for infinite statistics (in this case time, but I'd say it's very comparable to scores because of the way it increases through actions). In this situation, doing a particular, innocent, unavoidable action repeatedly can get you infinite statistics (or at least to the maximum tsc is capable of displaying scores.
Do you want to handle the two cases differently?
Also, in that little side argument going on:
Do we ban the final egg sonic trick in sa1 because sonic team patched it in sadx? You can't reach the capsule in sadx because sonic team made minor changes to the level that only affect whether or not that particular exploit can be carried out. It is this that paraxade is drawing the version difference comparison from. And, to be honest, I entirely agree with him.
Thorn:
Again, I'm done arguing the Unleashed scores. I'm sorry you were banned from chat to see the point that made me concede, but I'm not arguing my case any further, because I've been proven wrong. However, since you're hankering for a good debate, here you go:
Your point c states that levels with score scalping techniques should be banned. I'm extremely unsure of myself on the Sonic Advance 2 case, since the TSC scores records are 100000+ points, and that probably can't be reached in the 10-minute time limit by getting 100 from midair actions over and over. But I know Hill Top can be scalped like crazy... yet nobody's done it, presumably because nobody thinks it's competition-legal. Lava Reef and Launch Base are the precedent here with respawning enemies... the only difference here is that the numbers are large because they grow by rapid increments of 10000 instead of slow increments of 3000, but it's still possible to get an insanely large score by scalping.
Basically, what I've been trying to drive home is that there's too many "understood" conventions because we don't ever make formal statements of them, and if we made such statements, we might be able to keep some charts instead of banning them outright. The above Hill Top score scalping is a good example because nobody on TSC has done it. The whole "no tricks only possible in rare versions" thing has been an unstated rule for a while now, but the rare versions of these games have become easy to find on the Internet: imo this convention should be obsoleted, which could possibly allow for some better S3&K Times records, and would open up a Special division in Sonic 3D Blast with 28 spots to submit to. It's understood not to collect a single ring twice in Sonic 1 if they respawn, but similar stages in Unleashed are outright banned. The Hydrocity 2 bug where you don't progress to Marble Garden... does that count as a finish, or not? Is it okay to calculate a score you earned in a Time Attack mode that doesn't show the score on-screen (this was discusses already, but no ruling was ever passed)?
If you're hankering for something to argue, argue those points that haven't been resolved, instead of the one that has.
Aitamen:
If my two cents is unwanted, feel free to delete this post:
I've always been under the assumption that scalping was legal so long as there was a time limit to hit, and that the score counter couldn't be maxed within the time limit. (LB birds + the 'botnik-standing-on-dead-thing in one of the 3D games, for examples, so far as I understand them)
As long as both points are met, it doesn't eliminate competition, imnsho. The faster you can clear the rest of the level, the more time you have to get points. It does become, at that point, two records for the best speedrunner, but you also have to be willing to DO such a thing, as well as being able to.
I don't think the LR thing should be banned any more than the M2 trick should be banned, or than the HT-scalping should be banned. This applies to SAdva2 as well.
EDIT: For clarity...
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