[X-5]

I have been meaning post this for years now. Anyone that has ever been to the Mario Kart 64 competition site will know they use two separate divisions for levels that have major, level-killing glitches.

The Non-SC division allows regular everyday skillful shortcuts, but glitch cuts or tricks to get a stupidly low time and ruin the level fall under the SC category.

Will anything like this ever be considered? Many games desperately need this, especially games like Sonic 1 where damn near every level is glitched now. It is really a great win-win situation for everybody, people who enjoy seeing how far a level can go with unreal glitch cuts and wall tricks can see compete how they wish, and people like me who think going through a wall and cutting out 50-95% of the level completely RUINS the fun. Finding such tricks is of course impressive, but...I do not like using them.  And of course, some people enjoy both ways.

I see NO negatives to making multiple charts other than the time taken.. hell I'd do all the coding for you guys if I knew anything more than very basic website coding.

[SuperSonic94]

I like glitches, but unfortunately there are people that does not like glitches, because, like you say: A glitch cut the level 50 to 95%. I like the glitches that only cuts 10 to 50% of the level, and sometimes I like "big" glitches when a level of 3 or 4 minutes can be cutted to 7 or 8 seconds, an example could be: Sonic Adventure DX - Casinopolis - Sonic or Sonic Adventure DX - Ice Cap - Sonic, that levels definitely are not fun, but I like to do that type of glitches.

[Ring Rush]

Look around the forum.

This is the major topic of debate recently, and right now most if not all of the mods/admins are against this.

Since I have better things to do and I'm sure someone will do something detailed later, I don't want to go into the many different arguments against this idea, but I'll just put out one reason why this won't work: what is it that is considered a "major shortcut"? Is superbouncing in Crazy Gadget a major shortcut? Phasing through a gate in SSR? Skipping a fight in SU? Getting a precise SDJ to skip a platform in near any game?

[SadisticMystic]

We already have the coding in place, and could put these new charts into place almost at will. In fact, for Sonic R this is almost a done deal, and of course S3 2P zones already have this treatment. There are, of course, a few problems:

-How do we get around the issue of charts counting twice? If breaking a level gives you the incentive that its chart now counts twice (one SC and non-SC), then there's still reason to look for new breaks. Unlike Mario Kart, which keeps its SC and non-SC rankings completely separate, in TSC all charts eventually converge in the sitewide rankings, and having more submissions (perhaps by virtue of getting more charts created in the game) results in a higher rank. The more broken a game gets, the more it counts in the sitewide? Seems like a rather unintended consequence. You could fix this by assigning one set a weight of 0, so that they're "just for fun" and don't count for anything, but then you either: make the SC charts authoritative, in which case the charts that count are "SC for the levels that have them plus non-SC for the rest" and some non-SC charts that count and some that don't will just confuse everyone; or make non-SC the only thing that counts, at which point we have a TG-like "Once your methods become too good, you can't use them anymore except in a token competition that doesn't really count" fiat and lose much of the splendor of excelling at Sonic.
-What about breaks that are the result of version differences? Eternal Engine immediately comes to mind here, and there may be stuff in the Game Gear/Master System games that also fits under this. Right now having all applicable versions of a game does benefit you in the case that there's a difference that only one version can exploit, but at least with the other version you can still submit and be some ways back depending on the level. Once you go SC, those without the SC-able version don't even have a claim to submit anything at all to the chart. On TSC that also excludes them from any applicable Total divisions the missing chart is a part of, so this could stretch the version differences to be even more impactful than they already are--something else to take into the point 1 considerations. (Sure Unleashed already has split-game charts that prevent each version from accessing an entire set of charts, but Sega pretty much forced our hand there, and besides that game is garbage.)
-And again there's that 800-pound gorilla (or is it a 600-pound cat?), subjectively determining what gets the SC treatment. Obviously if this goes through, let's say for Death Chamber 3, jumping up into the corner light and taking that out of bounds would land you in SC. But what about the out of bounds in the final room, where you bounce off the hourglass, up through the ceiling, and reemerge just half a second later? Would we be able to do that in a non-SC or not? Which of the big tricks in Cannon's Core would be allowed non-SC and which wouldn't? Is Security Hall 5 SC-worthy for the red emerald, the blue (version-exclusive), both, or neither? I don't know if you've seen it, but SDM's recent Launch Base 2 run with Tails is really wacky, involving lots of stuff that's not supposed to happen, including a glitch setup that's required to be carried over from the previous level, and some of the tricks it takes can be used in other levels to land them squarely in SC-land. Do we add SC charts for rings (as oxymoronic as that sounds, given that the level takes 10 minutes to do that way)? Does this SC free-for-all give us pretense to reinstate Launch Base 1 "run up as many points as you can for as long as you feel comfortable, then hurry to the end and beat the boss"?

All in all, another wishful call for action, the same problems as last time we went over this.

[Luxray]

SM has spoken >:O

[X-5]

hmm, I am not surprised this has been suggested but I never seen any topics about it anywhere, well I guess this one cannot hurt.

the hardest part definitely is figuring out what falls under SC and what does not.  I really think it can be done though, if the coders are willing to re-write a ton of charts and rules. We just need to use common sense, and think hard about  what is considered SC and what is not. Most levels are quite easy, but then some are much trickier like Death Chamber, as mentioned.

As for super bounces and all those kind of tricks, I think they should be allowed under Non-SC. The SC charts need to be made mainly for major out of bounds tricks, that skip at least 40% of more of the level in just one maneuver or trick, like... . In Crazy Gadget's example the super bounces skip a lot of the level, but no one trick shoots you out of the level to the goal ring  to beat the level in 20 seconds or something. The level as-is, should not fall into the SC division. The 40% is not set in stone, but gives you the rough general idea.

Some examples of what I am talking about.. For emerald coast on SADX, I bet all of the shortcuts added up shave off 35-45% of the level, but they are small spread out so it feels like you are playing the whole thing, therefore never needing a SC chart. Then you have something like Final Egg, the 53 second shortcut destroys at least two thirds of the level and falls under SC, and the other 8 second shortcut which is ridiculous is another SC, playing through the regular 2:00ish route is the way to go for Non-SC.

For the charts issue.. I was just thinking that it would be fine to make SC and Non-SC count for the same amount of points apiece, like any other chart. I don't see the harm in that, cause you can always be encouraged to find new cuts just to see how ridiculously low the level can go. A chart with 150 players is "worth" 150 points in first right? Just have the SC chart listed right under that level in the same system, # of players = point value.

The main reason SC charts are a good idea is for entertainment value for all, and everybody can play how they wish. Is watching a 8 second final egg video as entertaining as a legit 2 minute run? Or for playing, who the hell wants to be forced to spindash a few times and make a jump to the capsule and hope they are a few hundredths faster than the current record holder? As cool and odd as the shortcut may be, it is really only for show, we need a choice to play the whole thing if we wish!

I know it will be really hard to implement for some levels, but if this can be seriously considered post all possible problems, and I will find a solution, as well as figure what I believe is considered SC and non-SC  for a few games, mainly Adventure 1 and 2.

[Ring Rush]

The main reason SC charts are a good idea is for entertainment value for all, and everybody can play how they wish.

You can play as you wish. Nobody is forcing you to use shortcuts - you can still submit Non-SC times to TSC. They might not rank as high, but thats because they aren't fast enough to rank high. But if you enjoy competing without shortcuts, especially on a level like Final Egg where it is obvious who used a shortcut and who didn't, go ahead.

[Rolken]

This is not going to happen. Splitting the charts is not "win-win". Charts that have been around since 03 are not going to be altered without significant reason to do so, and broadly separating the whole game into SC and non-SC, with all kinds of tiny rules as to what counts as "SC enough" for every level, is annoying and undesirable for almost all competitors.

We already tried something like this on a small scale with freestyle, and nobody wanted it.

[Stefan]

A quick point:

The point of competition is to perform the best, which is generally achieved through having the best route, and being the best at optimizing it. One is defined, as a competitor, from what he does differently than everyone else. If I discover a quick optimization trick that saves a second, and I get the record, it's because I discovered something and did something -nobody else was doing-. It wasn't intuitive, and it wasn't the "main route", because it was a new discovery when I found it.

If we say that taking a shortcut that skips 60% of the level is unfair because it ISN'T TAKING THE FULL DISTANCE OF THE LEVEL, then all those other little optimizations that cut corners and skip parts of a level should be disallowed too. What you end up with is a terrible situation where everyone is tied for the same time.

Destroying shortcuts, especially this arbitrarily, is destroying the essence of competition.

[EngiNerd]

What still bugs me about this is the definition of arbitrary though.  Seriously, Final Egg?  Casinopolis?  It's hardly worth even submitting in those if you only have the DX version.  Why can't we make people hit a checkpoint or something?

[Stefan]

The definition of arbitrary bugs you? Something arbitrary is a conclusion that is gained purely on a person's discretion, instead of a pattern.

How does that bug you?

If we pick final egg to separate, and pick nothing else to separate, that's an arbitrary decision. There's no logic in play that makes that decision as to why only final egg should be separated. If you ay it should only happen for levels under 10 second completion time, you just made another arbitrary decision about where the limit should be drawn. There's no particular reason to make it 10 seconds, just because you felt like it.

[Ring Rush]

What still bugs me about this is the definition of arbitrary though.  Seriously, Final Egg?  Casinopolis?  It's hardly worth even submitting in those if you only have the DX version.  Why can't we make people hit a checkpoint or something?

I'd also like to point out that Casinopolis lacks finite, ordered checkpoints. Also the fastest method to beat Casinopolis is possible on the DX version.

[Alondite]

Stef, by your logic this is what shortcuts in competition is:

http://web.mit.edu/mna/Public/find_x_lol.jpg

Sure, that counts as finding X, but it's not going to get you any credit in Math class.  Shortcuts are essentially the same thing.  Sure, they get you to the end fast, at the expense of a good portion of the level.

[Parax]

No, a shortcut is something that helps you get to the end faster. In your example a shortcut is more like if you come up with your own mathematical formula that you can calculate faster for the same end result.

[Eis Makai]

Here's also an example of SC. Cannon's Core! I look at these stats that say 0:06:xx and I am like HTF is this possible! Since each level would take about 1 min to 3 minutes to beat normally. Tails portion I would say is about a minute and fifteen normally to 40 seconds. Eggman's is longer I believe so it would be about 1-23-xx to 1-05-xx. Knuckles has some tougher things to do such as swimming which Knuckles doesn't swim very fast but Rouge swims faster o_O. So Knuckles' would take about 1-15-xx at the least. Rouge's is actually shorter I believe so I say 50 seconds to 1-10-xx. Sonic's is the longest but faster portion so I say 0-40-xx to 1-1x-xx.

Getting 0:06 sounds like SC done. Am I right?

Sonic R is completely broken due to huge glitches. But doing them normally is easy too. SADX has glitches. Like on the bridge during the orca chase, sometimes Sonic will miss the boost pad and go through fence and dying. This happened to me twice. Or in Lost World with big snake head opens up the water room, well you can spindash on top of the snake's head and go through the wall there. but these aren't classified as SC.

[SadisticMystic]

0:06 involves its own special category of shortcut; it's tantamount to finding something in Mario Kart that lets you start on lap 3. There's still the matter of getting a good third lap, but just being able to start there goes a long way.

• Tails can get about 10 seconds and doesn't need anything "SC-worthy" to do that. Time switches are in the level, they can be used, and they are the central mechanic. That much can't be changed.
• Eggman, likewise, gets about 32 seconds. There's one point where you prepare a doorway in advance by shooting some enemies through a wall, but nothing big.
• Rouge can get to the time switch in 10 seconds and introduces the first arguable trick of the level: you can dive down from the switch to the floor so fast that you can play the rest of the section without time counting up at all. So if you allow that, it's an easy 10. Otherwise, I don't have a definitive run with a "good" time. Looking at my other videos, I have one with a 49-second Rouge section without hitting any time switches, and a 39-second one without scoring any points. The mid cutscene runs 8 seconds, and the end cutscene is 12...overall I think that with timestops but not a permanent one, this section goes to about 26.
• In my most recent route for Knuckles, I can get to the end in under 13 seconds, but you'd almost certainly find that objectionable: it's possible to go through the walls of the starting room, then glide through orange space directly to the ending room with the switch. That, however, would only get about 19: to go to 13 you need to take the further step of sidetracking to one of the time switches and hit it from the wrong side of the wall, so that you stop time and can continue to make that glide to the end. Another, more well-known breakout goes to Rouge's room, then up through the acid ceiling and again glides to the finish. This is good for about 22, or 18 with underwater glides. I haven't tried this part without going through walls in a long time, but from what I remember of the "standard route" topology, 35 seconds here sounds about right. And no, Knuckles doesn't swim any faster or slower than Rouge, with the obvious exception that Knuckles has the potential to go faster in a theoretical body of water that takes more than 30 seconds to cross (too bad that doesn't exist).
• Sonic gets a time switch right after you first gain control in that section, just over 5 seconds in. There's another permanent stop that works here to allow that first time switch to dictate the finishing time for the whole level. Again, if you don't like that, the first time switch still gets hit at 5, the second one at...let's say 13, the third one is skipped because it ruins your momentum, and then I think it's about a second faster to tag switch 4 than to just play up the running slide. If time is running at the top of the slide, it's another 25 seconds from there to the goal ring; it won't be, so I'm seeing 38-40.

All this adds up to a completely unobjectionable run that breaks 2:30: no going through walls, no permanent time stops. Allowing those two things enables that time to be cut in half, and of course you've seen what can happen when the first four parts don't count toward the time because the game's level succession function can be manipulated.[/list]

[Stefan]

Stef, by your logic this is what shortcuts in competition is:

http://web.mit.edu/mna/Public/find_x_lol.jpg

Sure, that counts as finding X, but it's not going to get you any credit in Math class.  Shortcuts are essentially the same thing.  Sure, they get you to the end fast, at the expense of a good portion of the level.

A more apt comparison to the weird example you put above is, in a level where the goal is "reach the goal", to find assorted items throughout the level,  set up something that appears to be a soccer goal, reaching it, and then recording your time.

A shortcut is a means by which you reach an intended end more quickly. A shortcut is like pulling out your calculator, picking a right triangle function, plugging in the numbers, and then using that to find x, instead of doing it on paper (though that would probably take longer on this example :p). Your example is a misinterpretation of the intended goal, and as such you reach a very different, unintended conclusion instead of the ultimate correct answer.

[SuperSonic94]

I agree with some users... Definitely a shortcut is a little different than a glitch. A shortcut is a way to complete the level more quickly... A glitch is a shortcut too, but crossing walls, roofs, and things of the game that are not normal to pass.

Shortcuts and Glitches are easy to find on Sonic Adventure DX and Sonic Adventure 2 Battle.

Oh, and I can not say I cannot say much things because my english is not very good...