[PsyBorg]

It is quite fortunate that Rolken has not been paying attention to S2006 as of now, for a new download has just been released for S2006 that could have an impact on the way we compete. If you haven't heard the news, there is now a mode called Very Hard, which is downloadable at the price of 200 Microsoft Points per character. You're probably thinking, "Sega? Hard? Yeah right." or "Cheap bastards." Sure, both may be true to a certain extent, but the question here is not about the actual difficulty of the stages, but rather about what impact Very Hard should have on TSC rankings. I have only been able to play Sonic's missions so far, but I assume these differences also are similarly present in the Very Hard missions for Shadow and Silver.

Let's look at what seperates this from Normal and Hard:

-Stages now have a total maximum time bonus of 100000. Now consider the amount of enemies we have in these stages, and we have a MASSIVE score attack difference between Very Hard and the other modes.

-Some stages are actually played in a different fashion. This affects Time Attack as well as Score Attack capabilities. Let's use Wave Ocean as an example; part 1 begins at the end and ends at the beginning, although if you use Sky Gem (aka Gun Drive), you can simply hit the gate to get out of the stage. (Yeah, silly Sega, I know.) Another fine example is Sonic's Tropical Jungle, where after the usual stuff of part one, we are not sent to the regular part 2; instead, we are sent to a version of the Tropical Ruin which is accessible to the Sonic/Elise combo; this drastic change from the original Tropical Jungle would really change the way we play this stage. Oh, and there are other new changes too;  Flame Core is completed in reverse stage order, Dusty Desert is played without Elise, and a whole other assortment of random changes in stages.

-Some passages that were once accessible by glitch are now blocked. As of now, the only place where I experienced this was Sonic's Kingdom Valley part 2, but there might be more that I don't know of.


Now, I need to ask you guys a few questions so we can solve this problem:

1. Should Very Hard be added to the current ranking plan? (I'm sure most of you will say yes, but if you have an objection, go ahead and say it)
2. How will these be ranked?
3. If we are going to rank these, should they be in freestyle because they cost MS points and would be unfair to those who can't get them, or should they simply be added to the competition flat out because they're really a major part of the competition of S2006? Which one of these quotes do you agree with?

<F-Man> the game costs money, and then micropayments add to it
<F-Man> people shouldn't have to pay even more than regular price to have fair competition

(Rolken mentioned previously that Very Hard stats have their own rankings in the game)
<Rolken> ...I see no lack of fairness in them being counted
<Rolken> you have to spend $360+ just to compete anyway
<Rolken> $8 or whatever isn't going to kill anyone

Well? What's your view on this?

[F-Man]

Well fuck if Rolken doesn't even mind then I'm all for it.

[Bilan]

Im quite sure the policy on downloadable content is that it doesnt get put up, only whats on the game when its released. SEE: SA1 Twinkle Circuit downloads

Yea I think its gay if your basically going to require people to shell out more money just to have a decent shot at competing properly.

[Rick_242]

Im quite sure the policy on downloadable content is that it doesnt get put up, only whats on the game when its released. SEE: SA1 Twinkle Circuit downloads

Yea I think its gay if your basically going to require people to shell out more money just to have a decent shot at competing properly.

My thoughts exactly. I'm pretty much against adding the download to TSC for competing.

[F-Man]

Im quite sure the policy on downloadable content is that it doesnt get put up, only whats on the game when its released. SEE: SA1 Twinkle Circuit downloads

Only one of the tracks was offered to download and on Dreamcast only, and the rest required a memory editor such as Action Replay on GameCube to get. So basically this is far from being in the same vein.

Also my inquiry of adding extra twinkle circuits is still in effect, and if anyone remember my original topic, it was stated from the get-go that they wouldn't be worth any point. The same could be applied to this.

[Thorn]

I'm inclined to lean towards the rulings on the extra Twinkle Circuit course: DLs shouldn't be considered towards a championship.  I think that the charts can go up if they must, but preferably under Freestyle where they won't impact people who don't get the downloads.  And this may be a REALLY bad comparison, but we don't track every time period in Sonic CD, right?  We don't track Super Hard times in Heroes, or Expert times in Shadow.  I think that despite the alternate method of obtaining the difficult stages in S2006, it's still the same concept.

[F-Man]

Told you it wouldn't work, PB.

[eggFL]

WOW new Sonic06 content!! Thanks for the heads up!

and personally I think they should be counted.

[Bilan]

As soon as I saw that youd posted in this topic egg somehow I just knew youd like the idea.

[KnucklesSonic8]

We don't track Super Hard times in Heroes, or Expert times in Shadow.  I think that despite the alternate method of obtaining the difficult stages in S2006, it's still the same concept.

Agreed.

[Rick_242]

We don't track Super Hard times in Heroes, or Expert times in Shadow.  I think that despite the alternate method of obtaining the difficult stages in S2006, it's still the same concept.

Agreed.

Same here.

[F-Man]

We don't track Super Hard times in Heroes, or Expert times in Shadow.  I think that despite the alternate method of obtaining the difficult stages in S2006, it's still the same concept.

Agreed.

Oh please don't agree to that if you don't know how it works. In Heroes and Shadow, expert mode was all levels one after the other and next to no way to tell what time you got.

In Sonic The Hedgehog, you select and level and get this menu:

• Normal
• Hard
• Very Hard

Each one listing your best time, rings and score. This is the same reason why we'll be ranking all three of those categories for bosses as well which we didn't do in most other games. Everything is ranked perfectly in-game. And that is why it is not the same concept.

If it was, then we wouldn't rank regular Hard mode at all.

P.S. ks8, Link @ Sonic CulT finally released a network client for the full version of Sonic Riders.

[eredani]

We don't track Super Hard times in Heroes, or Expert times in Shadow.  I think that despite the alternate method of obtaining the difficult stages in S2006, it's still the same concept.

The reason hard mode isn't ranked for those games is because the times aren't saved, and there's no completion screen available to show the achieved time. If the final time was shown at level completion then there would be rankings for Super Hard- and Expert mode on TSC, like the SA2 Mission 5's are.

The Very Hard Mode in Sonic 06 is an expansion of the original game, and they should be allowed, as is the case with Sonic & Knuckles lock-on charts for Sonic 2 and 3.

[Thorn]

The Very Hard Mode in Sonic 06 is an expansion of the original game, and they should be allowed, as is the case with Sonic & Knuckles lock-on charts for Sonic 2 and 3.

I don't think they're expansions in the same sense, but whatever.  If we're going down that road, then why can't Sonic CD players compete in all time periods?  PC users in particular can click a menu option and turn the time posts off, and others can just clear out the posts on the path they want, then restart the level.

Okay, everyone seems to have their reasons, and since Rolko likes the idea, I guess I'll buy MS Points tomorrow.  I really don't think these rankings should carry any weight (I pity dial-up users who need to DL these levels), but I suppose that more competition is what TSC is about.

[Bilan]

Yeah as I just ranted in chat, basically, if these go up, Im not competing. Im not shelling out more money which I cant afford to waste on some extras just so that I can be on equal footing with everyone else.

[eggFL]

On second thought (read: after trying them out) I don't really care if they are counted or not. It's not a big deal.

We can have them listed but they won't be worth points, something like that.

It's not something I'd want to force people to buy. They're not bad, but they're generally 'interesting' rather than fun and they're going to be annoying to compete in. I was awed by them at first but it's a fickle and short-lived pleasure. (It's still Sonic06 after all.)

Plus I missed the fact that these come with the game, we're just downloading the ability to play them.

[PsyBorg]

Plus I missed the fact that these come with the game, we're just downloading the ability to play them.

Are there more modes of play that can be unlocked only through downloads that we currently know of?

[Crowbar]

Yeah as I just ranted in chat, basically, if these go up, Im not competing. Im not shelling out more money which I cant afford to waste on some extras just so that I can be on equal footing with everyone else.

If you're going to have that attitude then you may as well never buy another Sonic game, ever.

Because, you know, you're just shelling out more money which you can't afford to waste on some games just so that you can be on equal footing with everyone else.

You could also say that, by this logic, any chart entirely or almost entirely based on luck (hello hunting stages and rings in games with ? boxes) shouldn't be included, because it's unfair to force people to invest the huge amounts of time required to do very well on them just as it's supposedly unfair to force people to invest small amounts of money in order to compete on extra other divisions.

And then you might as well say that ALL competition is invalid, because you have to invest time and effort in order to compete at all, and not everyone can do that, and if everyone can't do that then it's unfair, right?

I've seen the random rings issue debated here before. The argument against was basically "It's ridiculous to expect people to spend all that time", the argument for was "If you aren't be prepared to invest that time then that's a sign you don't deserve to be on equal grounds with those that are". There's absolutely no reason at all this shouldn't apply to money.

It's utterly retarded to suggest that things shouldn't be included purely because they're downloadable content, regardless of other criteria.

[Bilan]

Y'know, it might seem a weird concept, but I actually buy games for FUN, and because I enjoy playing them, NOT specifically so that I can compete with you guys here. As it stands, being able to compete with you guys is a nice little extra when I buy various games, but not anymore.

I cannot be fucked to write a huge post, Ive just woke up, so to summarise, Ive just realised what a massive waste of 3 years Ive spent TAing, so Im off to like, do something constructive with life, or something?

Laters guys.

[Magnezone]

The problem with including Very Hard mode in the rankings is that you cannot fill up all of your stats unless you pay for the extra content. Every other game that is up on the site does not have this problem. I object to ranking Very Hard mode because of that, and also because it's causing stupid crap when it comes to TSC.

Of course, I don't think anyone would have a problem with ranking the content if it was free. :[ Money is such a touchy issue. It all boils down to what you want to support with your money.

[Rolken]

If you're going to have that attitude then you may as well never buy another Sonic game, ever.

Because, you know, you're just shelling out more money which you can't afford to waste on some games just so that you can be on equal footing with everyone else.

This is a crucial point. The money issue is a non-issue, because money is always a restriction on competition, even within game rankings. Sonic 2/3 is restricted by ownership of S&K, SA1/2 is restricted by ownership of DC/GC, S1GG by GG/SMS. Making an arbitrary exception here because it's online is ridiculous, especially since it's by far the CHEAPEST restriction to competition that's ever come up!

I see no reason to put it in Freestyle. There is the option of putting it in Extra and divorcing Extra from the overall rankings, leaving it with its own leadership. But the concept that it's somehow unfair to compete in it is absurd.

[F-Man]

Well for me it's going to take FOREVER before I have submitted for every STH stat, and it's ok, there's no reason to be in a hurry. If you don't want to buy very hard mode just wait a few years till it's free or something.

[Stefan]

rolken, the differences between SA1 and SA2 on DC/GC and this is that you can still compete and even do well at a statistic and overalls if you don't own the certain system. See yoshifan, SS101, and me in SA2 as GC exclusive players in the top 5. Marth was GC only at sa1 for the longest time and still remained at the top of the chart.

But requiring someone to purchase something to have the MEANS to compete hasn't happened in those two games.

Sonic 2 can be emulated to eliminate the inability to compete. But sonic06 can't. Requiring something to be purchased, no matter the price, in order to actually submit a stat at 1/3 of the competition kind of eliminates the competition for some.

I don't really have an opinion, I see both sids. But this is a different case than has happened prior.

[Rolken]

rolken, the differences between SA1 and SA2 on DC/GC and this is that you can still compete and even do well at a statistic and overalls if you don't own the certain system. See yoshifan, SS101, and me in SA2 as GC exclusive players in the top 5. Marth was GC only at sa1 for the longest time and still remained at the top of the chart.

The comparison is not exact, and you have more refined observations than a lot of the people posting in this topic. The point was that it costing money should not incite a knee-jerk response that it should not be on the site, or a lot of things would not be on the site.

Requiring something to be purchased, no matter the price, in order to actually submit a stat at 1/3 of the competition kind of eliminates the competition for some.

And the alternative is to deny people from competing because others refuse to hand over a few bucks for the extra modes.

I mean, I presented the option of keeping downloadable content to its own side leadership. Refusing to download extra content does not necessarily have to impact overall rankings - but the notion that they should be barred from the site altogether is one that a lot of people are proposing and one I am not going to entertain because it benefits no one.

And need I point out again that you have to pay $60 to compete at all?

[Bilan]

...NNNNNG.

RAR

MUST SMASH.

Every fibre in my being is telling me to smash those horrible times.

You have angered the beast.

He didnt want to do this.

He is angry. <_<

WROAR

EDIT: Mission 14 - Sonic needs a Score bracket, you can get points from destroying stuff during the mission
EDIT II: Mission 19 - Sonic - Rings needs to go, there are no rings for that mission.

Similary, Mission 20 - Sonic - Score needs to gtfo too, the only points to be earned there are from time bonus

[F-Man]

Oops.