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Scores and the Secret Rings?


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Offline Ring Rush

Scores and the Secret Rings?
« on: March 29, 2008, 09:31:02 pm »
Sonic and the Secret Rings has a history of having issues with score competition. First, while invistigating some (at the time) extremely high records in Sand Oasis, we found out about being able to get bonuses from speed and time break, that were never announced anywhere and weren't factored in until the final screen. After discovering this weird bonus, we have found more and more ways to manipulate it and create infinite scores. Currently, to keep competition different for each level, we have rules in place that ban seven different skills, stop you from dieing in a run, and stop you from restarting from a previous run at a certain time (although the last really isn't about the issue of the break bonuses as much as it is about following the precedent set in Cannon's Core 1&5 rings division).

So for a while, this division has been under stress from artificially imposed limitations. But for nearly a year it seemed like we finally pinned down everything. Then in one of the levels, SO8 I think it was, some people started getting 20 points higher than the average score. Nobody understood why this was, and it was left as simply a mystery for quite a while. However, it was hypothesized, after a few not-very-accurate tests, that this bonus came from something about grinding a rail.

This month, that hypothesis was finally proved, and to make matters worse, it was proven you could get infinite points simply by grinding rails. Unlike the previous bonus, there is no simple way to ban grinding a rail multiple times. In score runs, you will be backtracking a lot, and it is very easy when using sonic's backstep move to accidently get on a rail you don't want to. There are more complications with banning grinding a rail multiple times, yet I don't feel like going into them. Not to mention if we do put this in effect, nearly all charts would have to be wiped as nobody knows if they've double grinded.

Another solution is to remove the levels with rails from the score division. This sounds like a nice solution in theory, yet not when you look at how many charts would be left. A quick estimate I did based on a few randomly selected levels showed me that around 55-60% of levels have rails. It seems a bit weird to have a score division yet only have around 50 of the possible 110 charts (keep in mind a lot of levels already don't have score charts). It just seems we are grasping at every thread to keep this division. Which brings me to my next point:

I propose that we remove the score division of Sonic and the Secret Rings. There are simply too many artificial limitations we are adding just so we could keep this fairly unimportant ranking. I didn't make this entire argument to Rolken, but what I did say (about too many random restrictions) he agreed with. With the rail exploit being stacked upon everything else so far that we've done, it just doesn't seem worth it anymore to keep trying to save scores. So, yeah, this is what I think, and I hope we can finally come to an agreement and plan of action instead of me just being ignored when I talk about it in chat.
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Offline EngiNerd

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Re: Scores and the Secret Rings?
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2008, 01:01:19 pm »
Agreed.  The score charts are getting kinda pointless, and if this continues, I give it two months before someone discovers that JUMPING increases your score.  Plus, I don't know about the individual missions, but only Dinosaur Jungle has no rails (I think) and only maybe one or two missions of Lost Prologue have rails.  Otherwise, it's a pretty clean sweep.  It's definitely not worth it.

So yeah, some mod needs to add a poll here <_<
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Offline Rolken

Re: Scores and the Secret Rings?
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2008, 10:50:35 pm »
These kinds of decisions aren't really best made by polls.

BenB raised the possibility of it being like Rush wherein certain bonuses are capped. If that is true, there could be something worth salvaging; if not, probably not. As such, it would be a good idea to do a proof-of-concept run to see how high the bonuses can be taken in comparison to a similar run that doesn't exploit such shenanigans. If it's either unlimited or, to the best anyone can determine, too ridiculous to justify competition, then it's time to bust out the axe.
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Offline Stefan

Re: Scores and the Secret Rings?
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2008, 05:26:41 pm »
jumping won't increase your score..

anyway rr, I know a few missions I conclusively grinded (is that a word) every rail and ending up tying a "max" score. So.. I am not so certain that rail bonus is infinite.

Can you prove it? =/

Offline Ring Rush

Re: Scores and the Secret Rings?
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2008, 07:11:15 pm »
Well Stefan, go to one of the Sand Oasis missions (iirc it was the diehard, I know it was either 5, 6, 7, or 8). Go to the platform before the enemies you have to homing attack to proceed. Clear this platform off of enemies, then walk backwards as far as you can. You should hit an invisible wall right at the end of the rail. Now, backstep so you land on the end of the rail and fully grind it til the end. Walk backwards and repeat. I did this for a bit and at the end I had 100 more points than normal.

Okay, did some more, formal tests, with the following results:

4 grinds ~ 40 extra action points
1 grind ~ 10 extra action points
22 grinds ~ 220 extra action points (took 5 minutes for a 1 minute long level)

I think this proves that this is either infinite, or has an unreasonably high cap to expect players to do it on every level.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 07:44:08 pm by Ring Rush »
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Offline Magnezone

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Re: Scores and the Secret Rings?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2008, 01:19:31 pm »
Missions affected by this (incomplete obviously):
Lost Prologue 20: Dead (though the timer makes it so you can't get infinite score)
Lost Prologue 21: Dead (though the timer makes it so you can't get infinite score)

Evil Foundry 1: Dead
Evil Foundry 2: Dead (dual rails in a later stretch)
Evil Foundry 5: Dead (rails all over the place, time limit though)
Evil Foundry 6: Dead (rail staring you in the face at the beginning)
Evil Foundry 8: Dead (golem at the end)
Evil Foundry 9: Dead (rail almost staring you in the face at the beginning)
Evil Foundry 11: Dead (rail staring you in the face at the beginning)
Evil Foundry 12: Still Alive

Levitated Ruin 1: Dead
Levitated Ruin 3: Dead (invisible rail at beginning)
Levitated Ruin 4: Dead (Rail at beginning)
Levitated Ruin 5: Still Alive
Levitated Ruin 7: Still Alive
Levitated Ruin 8: Still Alive
Levitated Ruin 9: Needs to be axed anyway since you can do infinite loops
Levitated Ruin 10: Still Alive
Levitated Ruin 11: Still Alive

Night Palace 1: Dead
Night Palace 2: Still Alive
Night Palace 3: Still Alive
Night Palace 4: Still Alive
Night Palace 6: Dead (Two rails after the hourglass can be easily re-boarded)
Night Palace 7: Dead (ditto)
Night Palace 8: Dead (Rail at the beginning can be re-boarded even if the arrows destroy some solid ground)
Night Palace 9: Dead (Two rails after the third spirit world entrance)
Night Palace 10: Still Alive
Night Palace 11: Dead (The rail leading into the upside-down exit to the spirit world is regrindable)
Night Palace 12: Dead (it's possible to regrind the invisible rail)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 03:00:26 pm by SkyLights »

Offline Ring Rush

Re: Scores and the Secret Rings?
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2008, 02:23:17 pm »
SL: I'm fairly sure, due to the Night Palace glitch, that NP2 is also dead, as you can simply break out of bounds and go to the spirit world.

So wait, did we have official confirmation that we are just removing the rail levels?
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Offline Stefan

Re: Scores and the Secret Rings?
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2008, 03:43:28 pm »
RR, I can't see why it's a bad idea to remove just the rail levels.

If you find a technique that provides for infinite score in a certain type of level, you don't just go about deleting unaffected levels. You don't necessarily nuke all scores cause a few have a certain technique.

Your wording made the entire situation sound DRASTIC, as if every level were easily broken and easy to hax. The entire level of Dinosaur Jungle is free from any consequences of infinite rail points.

Below is a comprehensive list of which levels are affected by the technique and which aren't:

Scores in Need of Scrapping Because of Rail Points
Sand Oasis 1
Sand Oasis 4
Sand Oasis 5
Sand Oasis 6
Sand Oasis 8
Evil Foundry 1
Evil Foundry 2
Evil Foundry 6
Evil Foundry 8
Evil Foundry 9
Evil Foundry 11
Levitated Ruin 1
Levitated Ruin 4
Pirate Storm 1
Pirate Storm 3
Skeleton Dome 1
Skeleton Dome 5 *
Skeleton Dome 6 *
Skeleton Dome 9 *
Skeleton Dome 10 *
Skeleton Dome 11 *
Night Palace 1
Night Palace 6
Night Palace 7
Night Palace 8
Night Palace 9
Night Palace 12

*Rails in Skeleton Dome, though regrindable, are extremely difficult to backtrack to. Often, one must blindly pass backwards through fast moving axes or skeleton enemies. Other times, spike balls are the hazard. Though infinite score is possible, it is extremely difficult. If someone can consistently grind the single rail in sd11, I think they deserve a pricey reward.

Scores in Need of Scrapping for Other Reasons
Levitated Ruin 9 - You can take infinite laps around the level.
Pirate Storm 9 - Infinite laps *
Pirate Storm 10 - Infinite laps *
Pirate Storm 11 - infinite rings
Pirate Storm 12- Infinite laps *

*Technique is difficult, but exists.

Scores in Limbo
Lost Prologue 20
Lost Prologue 21
Sand Oasis 7
Evil Foundry 5
Skeleton Dome 7
Night Palace 11

All of these scores have regrindable rails, but have time limits. The time limits prevent infinite scores and put less emphasis on rail grinding. For example, SD7's time limit is 45 seconds, and it takes a decent chunk of time and effort to regrind a rail. It is more efficient to go for extra rings (this level is not maxed) than to spend all your time on a 10 point regrind. these levels should probably be on a case by case basis.

Levitated Ruin 3
Skeleton Dome 3

These levels, too, have time limits. The thing that separates them from the above levels is that they may not have regrindable rails. The rails are either very difficult to regrind or aren't regrindable at all. These levels are otherwise the same as the above.

Scores Which Are Entirely Unaffected
Sand Oasis 2
Sand Oasis 3
Dinosaur Jungle 1
Dinosaur Jungle 2
Dinosaur Jungle 3
Dinosaur Jungle 4
Dinosaur Jungle 6
Dinosaur Jungle 7
Dinosaur Jungle 8
Dinosaur Jungle 9
Dinosaur Jungle 10
Dinosaur Jungle 12
Evil Foundry 12
Levitated Ruin 5
Levitated Ruin 7
Levitated Ruin 8
Levitated Ruin 10
Levitated Ruin 11
Pirate Storm 2
Pirate Storm 4
Pirate Storm 6
Pirate Storm 7
Pirate Storm 8
Skeleton Dome 2
Skeleton Dome 4
Skeleton Dome 8
Skeleton Dome 12
Night Palace 2
Night Palace 3
Night Palace 4
Night Palace 10

Conclusion and Junk

Basically, the extent of this rail nonsense is far less than RR estimated. He constantly called to delete all the SSR scores, when in reality the game was not as touched by the technique as he assumed.

Of the 71 scores currently tracked by tsc, 5 were already capable of infinite score before the rail stuff was found. Of the remaining 66 scores, 31 are not affected in any way (47%). The number that are certainly capable of infinite score is 27, or 41%. In the event that the skeleton dome scores are deemed too unrealistic to become infinite, the number of guaranteed infinites is 22, or 33%

Best case scenario, with limbo scores tracked and the skeleton dome scores tracked, 44 levels will still be tracked at tsc, about 67%. Worst case scenario, 47% will remain.

In other words, we need opinions. What should we do about the limbo scores (time limit)? What should we do about the skeleton dome scores that are difficult to backtrack on (probably delete)?

And, based on our decision, is that fact that we have only 31 levels left justification to delete them all? or is that potential 31-44 levels enough competition value to rationalize keeping them? Should we delete all the levels because there will be only 31-44 left? Or should we only delete those clearly affected and keep competition in those which have competition value?

My opinion is that some skeleton dome scores should get second looks, the limbo scores should be taken on a point for point basis, and we should keep all salvageable levels we can.

your opinions?

EDIT: I've changed my mind, the SD scores are pretty much goners.

« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 09:46:56 am by Stefan »

Offline EngiNerd

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Re: Scores and the Secret Rings?
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2008, 10:06:49 pm »
I still say remove them.  Yeah, I know jumping won't possibly be what's discovered, but I still think there's bound to be one or two things that grant scores that nobody has found yet.  We only have very little left to document scores for, all of Dinosaur Jungle and no more than five for any other world.  As much as I hate bringing up that hot potato again, this reminds me of the recent Sonic R issue; the score charts are being broken (albeit, at an inconsistent rate), and soon enough some genius will deliver the final blow.  This just seems to be getting more and more impractical.

And, I know it really doesn't matter, and I'm only saying it as a joke, but isn't Stefan the current CHAMPION of SSR?  Implying that he's possibly scared of his lead dropping... <_<
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Offline Stefan

Re: Scores and the Secret Rings?
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2008, 09:52:46 am »
I don't see why that is a given assumption.

The idea that "we've found all these things, therefore there must be more" is not based in very much. We had an idea rail bonuses gave score a -long- time ago. We hadn't proven it, though. Not until recently was it problematic. You shouldn't pre-emptively delete scores because there "might" be something found in the future, especially when there is no evidence for it.

You forget that there are fewer missions clearly affected than clearly unaffected by the glitch. It's not that we have little left to work with!

Also if my lead drops in ssr i'll just get it back by finishing off ring chains and bosses.

Offline Stefan

Re: Scores and the Secret Rings?
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2008, 06:16:23 pm »
EF8 is ok. grinding the enemy dude does not increase score. (i grinded about 20 times and tied the max)

Offline Ring Rush

Re: Scores and the Secret Rings?
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2008, 10:03:54 pm »
Easy list of levels to remove for gerbil:

Sand Oasis 1
Sand Oasis 4
Sand Oasis 5
Sand Oasis 6
Sand Oasis 8
Evil Foundry 1
Evil Foundry 2
Evil Foundry 6
Evil Foundry 9
Evil Foundry 11
Levitated Ruin 1
Levitated Ruin 4
Levitated Ruin 9
Pirate Storm 1
Pirate Storm 3
Pirate Storm 9
Pirate Storm 10
Pirate Storm 11
Pirate Storm 12
Skeleton Dome 1
Skeleton Dome 5
Skeleton Dome 6
Skeleton Dome 9
Skeleton Dome 10
Skeleton Dome 11
Night Palace 1
Night Palace 6
Night Palace 7
Night Palace 8
Night Palace 9
Night Palace 12
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Offline EngiNerd

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Re: Scores and the Secret Rings?
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2008, 03:34:04 pm »
Yeah, we could use a resolution on this sometime....
And, it was a crazy thought, but has anyone tried checking if splash jump gives points?  Don't ask why, I just have a funny feeling.
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Offline GerbilSoft

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Re: Scores and the Secret Rings?
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2008, 12:27:04 am »
Yeah, yeah. I finally got around to removing these charts.

I still have to redo the calculation system so this sort of thing can be automated.

Offline Stefan

Re: Scores and the Secret Rings?
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2008, 08:01:09 am »
Anyway, my post was mainly about TSC's general attitude, not people in general. Unfortunately, the main examples I could find were all relating with GerbilSoft; I'm sorry for attacking you primarily. Thank you for taking the SSR scores down.

Offline Ring Rush

Re: Scores and the Secret Rings?
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2008, 05:50:21 pm »
Just a reminder for when Gerbil gets time (since this isn't as urgent as half the division being deleted), but LR5 needs to be deleted in scores.

Edit: Okay, Gerbil deleted it. Thanks :O
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 03:39:24 pm by Ring Rush »
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Offline Ring Rush

Re: Scores and the Secret Rings?
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2008, 03:38:55 pm »
Okay, I just broke both Pirate Storm 6 and 8; they have respawning pearls and rings respectively that are triggered by moving back a certain distance. If you are curious, I have demonstration videos of both, but right now they aren't uploaded onto my computer.

I can see more levels being broken by this method or other respawn methods. Thats why I propose that everytime someone breaks a level, they post it here, and at the end of every month Gerbil does the cleanup work. That way we won't have to bug him every day and he can live in peace until its his time of month X)
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Offline Aitamen

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Re: Scores and the Secret Rings?
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2008, 03:08:05 pm »
Isn't there a time limit in this game?

If so, then they should not be removed, as it's still based on finding the fastest point-gaining point, sprinting to it, and then finishing the level with as little time left as possible...  this is what makes records...

the exception to this is when the score can max (LB, for example, I believe can be maxed, as well as one of the botnik levels in SA2)...

the only other solution I can find is to impose an artificial time limit, like we did with S3&K.. (albeit there IS a time limit, but we don't want that 100k bonus in there, humping our charts...)

with standing precedent of artificial time-limit to protect scores, as well as HT-scores standing, I think that an artificial time limit (if there isn't a time limit in place already), would be ideal
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Offline Selphos

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Re: Scores and the Secret Rings?
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2008, 04:45:41 pm »
You revived a half-year-old topic to propose that? There is no time limit.
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Offline EngiNerd

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Re: Scores and the Secret Rings?
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2008, 05:16:14 pm »
To be honest, I for one don't mind ... if it wasn't for school, I would have kept this topic ALIVE for half a year.
Aitamen: There are time limits on some stages, but not many.  To the best of my knowledge, the only artificial time limits imposed are in SA2, right?  (too lazy to look it up)  The S3K one doesn't count - it's not a time limit so much as a cap on stupidity.
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Offline Ring Rush

Re: Scores and the Secret Rings?
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2008, 01:02:24 am »
The artificial timelimits in SA2 were removed. And any level that has a time limit we did not remove.
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