[DsSaster]

This topic is lol.

To be honest, I'm more for this being allowed than put in freestyle or banned for one reason.  When RC was broken, it was not banned or put in freestyle, it was allowed.  Yeah, I think Stefan has a strong point, where do you draw the line?  One level glitched is all right, but if the other levels are glitched in the same way it's a problem?  In addition to that, you can't neglect the fact that balloons and tag are a part of competition, which I enjoy more than the racing, but that's just me, it's all about personal preference.  DarkspinesSonic has spoken!!!!

P.S. Obligatory :D

[P.P.A.]

One level glitched is all right, but if the other levels are glitched in the same way it's a problem?

Back when RC was all the rage, the people who were pro the glitch actually argumented with "There is only one level broken." to justify it not being banned. (btw, I already was against it when it was new (despite me using it for the first time. Oh how I curse that deed).)
Also the problem isn't just that all levels are broken, but that all levels are broken in exactly the same way, which extremely alters the overall gameplay.
Which is a difference to Sonic 1, because from what I've heard a lot of stages are glitched, yet require more different tactics than Sonic R's omnipresent going out of bounds. (Could be wrong though, I'm not 100% sure on that matter as I never TAed S1.)

Stefan said that while both S1 and SA1 are totally screwed in the glitch department, both are still very active - however, those two are also some of the most popular Sonic games. Of course the first Sonic game ever and the first real 3D platformer in the series get a lot of attention - Sonic R however is an obscure spin-off only few actually played. And those who have might not really be bothered to compete in it when they see the amount of glitchhax.

:D

>:(

Also those glitches heavily impact the activity - from what I've observed, this seems to be the current situation:

• Etch - Plays a lot, has fun.
• Groudon - Forced himself to play a little if at all, is annoyed.
• Kmacc - Hinted that he'd stop playing a few pages back, recently only submitted a tag or balloon time.
• Bertin, P.P.A. - Don't play currently, probably won't return if there won't be freestyle charts. (Except for some Tag/Balloon)
• NOBODY ELSE

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Etch]

Hypocrites for the loss.

You forget RR rev and RE rev are unintentional glitches.  By doing the normal best strat, you sometimes just fall through walls.  The goal is time trials so I don't see why we do not want to complete the courses as fast as possible.

I checked out some of the Sonic Adventure times and they are crazy!!!

Sneaking through doors to complete some levels in just a matter of seconds?  Obviously that was not intentional either but did that stuff get banned, no.  Too many other examples out there.

You have two choices, just goof around getting crap times or actually try and push things to the absolute limit.  "Time trialing is dedicated to the theory and practice of advanced videogaming.  This is about man versus machine.  This is about taking gaming above and beyond.  Faster times.  Higher scores.  More insane stunts.  Stuff you didn't think was humanly possible."

I explained everything I have done so far along with some videos so if that does not help "even" up or improve the competition I don't know what will.  I could have just said nothing.  Not playing out of protest won't change anything either.  These are the fastest times possible, done and done.  You just can't go around changing the rules to suit your own needs, that's just greedy.  You can never know what strats lie around the corner so thinking that was the only possible shortcut was foolish.  RR was added without any issues but as soon as RI was done faster, oh no it's time to abandon ship, I hate this game, throws controller into the wall and cries.  Even with freestyle, how will that motivate people anymore than they are now, they will only be farther behind point wise, lol.  I don't exactly think this is a popular or fun game to begin with, hence always low activity.  The music sucks and there is only 5 levels, wtf?  I just had to use some game instincts and sniff out the bugs to see how poorly it was made.

Playing is a choice, beat or be beaten.  I cry for no one.

[Groudon]

Also the problem isn't just that all levels are broken, but that all levels are broken in exactly the same way, which extremely alters the overall gameplay.

Unless I missed something, RE isn't as broken as the other levels.  From what I've seen and read, you're not going in a small circle once out of bounds.  What you're doing is going through a wall to reach another part of the track directly underneath it (so you never actually leave the track's boundaries).

[P.P.A.]

I don't exactly think this is a popular or fun game to begin with, hence always low activity.  The music sucks and there is only 5 levels, wtf?  I just had to use some game instincts and sniff out the bugs to see how poorly it was made.

"Poorly made?!" If you don't like it, why are you even playing it? And mind you, this was a 3D game made in 1997 and one of the graphically most advanced Saturn games - a console that was generally not known for its excellence in displaying 3D graphics. You're blaming a 11 year old game for not being entirely glitch-free and not being able to put up with a bunch of internet freaks who spend their days obsessedly trying to improve on their fastest times by a few centiseconds. Sonic Adventure 1 for example had like 100 times the glitches of Sonic R (which to date is still one of the most bug-free 3D Sonic games ever, that one OOB glitch aside). And, does that make SA1 a bad game? Or SA2? Sonic the Hedgehog (MD)? I highly doubt it.

The music sucks

WHAT

You have two choices, just goof around getting crap times or actually try and push things to the absolute limit.  "Time trialing is dedicated to the theory and practice of advanced videogaming.  This is about man versus machine.  This is about taking gaming above and beyond.  Faster times.  Higher scores.  More insane stunts.  Stuff you didn't think was humanly possible."

RR was added without any issues but as soon as RI was done faster, oh no it's time to abandon ship, I hate this game, throws controller into the wall and cries.

Trust me, there were issues with RR and RC. Already back then I whined about how they'd ruin the game. And no, if I hated this game I would still be playing it because I wouldn't mind it being raped from the inside out.
TAing a game means more to me than simply amassing points to go up in some ranking. Time attacking, aside from it often being fun, is my way of expressing appreciation towards what a wonderful piece of software the developers have created (which is also why I could never TA a game I don't like, Sonic Jam aside). But if successfully speedrunning a game requires me to completely break all of its essence, changing the gameplay to something the designers would have never wanted to happen, to ruin that what made me fall in love with it in the first place (in this case, the excellent track layout) then no, this is definitely not a way to show my love to a game. It'd be like breaking the disk in half and spitting in the face of those who made it.

Even with freestyle, how will that motivate people anymore than they are now, they will only be farther behind point wise, lol.

I'm sure I am not the only one who TAs games because I like them. And freestyle charts would fuel competition, as people could finally play the game again the way they liked it. Some might also compete in the Freestyle charts for the points, but others might not give a shit because they're having FUN the normal way and are not only playing a game because of silly point whoring.

I don't care if my persistence on this matter annoys people, and unless Rolken comes in a locks the topic I will also not give up the fight. Seeing one of my favourite Sonic games being torn apart like that hurts me, and I will not stay behind and watch. That's what I did back in the days of the RC discovery, but I will not repeat this mistake.


EDIT:

[16:45] <DsRaichu> hey, I still want to get Gems Collection, but probably only is freestyle charts are added to Sonic R
[16:46] <DsRaichu> If I do end up getting it, I won't bother with the glitches
[16:47] <DsRaichu> any Sonic R records of mine will be pure, clean racing (no glitches)

(Unrelated parts cut out.)

[Selphos]

I honestly fail to see how people can find it fun to break a game in half, then break it again, and again, until all you can recognize is tiny shattered pieces of Sonic's face.

I am not exaggerating.

[Rolken]

Freestyle charts are a nonoption. Nobody plays freestyle. If you want a separation of charts, the question at hand is how to get people to actually compete in two sets of rankings. If there's no solution, then one ranking is the only viable answer.

[Rolken]

RC was originally allowed because it was the only stage that was broken.

I see, people just pick and choose what kind of rules to follow around here.

So if one shortcut is found its completely okay but if more are discovered then the game is completely ruined so just throw in the towel.  Don't you see the flawed logic here?  If people are upset with shortcuts breaking the game then why even allow it in the first place since RC was reduced to such short 3laps and flaps?

Flip flopping on the charts is really dumb.

It's not broken 100% anyway, there are still balloon and tag times.

It's not "flipflopping". A mildly degenerate technique that applies to only one or a handful of charts can be interesting for the purposes of competition as though the technique itself may be easier or less competitive, it adds to the variety of skills required to perform well in a game. If the whole game becomes degenerate, then you have a net loss of competition and the rankings suffer.

The question in that situation is whether it is more important to have the fastest possible times for the game with no holds barred, or to promote a lively and healthy competition between members in optimizing a game.

[Kmacc]

It's been 18 days since Sonic R had activity. The SCs really seem to be attracting people to play.

[Stefan]

You say this as if SR would have heavy competition without the glitches.

[P.P.A.]

Bertin and I would definitely TA it again.
Also yes, Sonic R always had not much competition. But that doesn't justify totally killing it off - if something is already rather unpopular we should at least try to keep the few competition that is there alive, shouldn't we?
The Saturn version reminded me that it really was a great game and how fun to TA it is. In fact I've already beaten some of my old times. But what's the point in submitting them to a chart that's filled with unfunny glitch-hax? :/