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Some General Thoughts


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Offline CosmicFalcon

Some General Thoughts
« on: February 18, 2008, 06:04:21 pm »
So I took a peak over at the rules page. Doesn't look particularly nice to read though I'm not entirely sure how to approve its appearance. Nonetheless I had a couple of other thoughts...

First thing I was going to say was specification of games titled "Sonic the Hedgehog"... but it seems the site has the original as "Sonic 1". Oh well.

It occurs to me that some rules that are listed as game specific could do with being general rules. As a rule of thumb (pun (if you can call it that) unintended), I would have thought it'd be ideal to have as many general rules as needed and to keep specific rules to a minimum... it seems that, like laws in real life, the rules tend to be rewritten by adding new stipulations and such, rather than being truly rewritten.

Some examples of specific game rules that could/should be general include those that appear for many games, such as "Time attack mode is to be used where possible/available.". I know some games with a TA mode will have an identical main game, given that they lack difficulty settings, but it is still worth considering for general rules. That, and something about times being as the game records them... though I am unsure myself on the priority of recorded records...

Another example I think is worthy of general rules is something from Shadow: "If you die after completing a mission objective, your stat does not count." I can't think of any non-freestyle situation where this is permitted in any game, and a note of "(freestyle where available)" would account for that.

There are probably other examples but I am not instigating an overhaul, just putting things forth for discussion. A major benefit of putting these kinds of rules in general rules is that they are likely to be made illegitimate in future games. Any game with a difficulty setting that is overrided by TA should have the TA rule. And if death after objective completion is beneficial for a 0 or near-0 time then it will be ruled out. This is why some rules that are not in multiple games already could do with being general rules.


Another thing I only just noticed is that there is somewhat a lack of consistency with the way rules are written. The various kinds of statements include:
"A run may not contain [xyz]"
"you may not [xyz]"
"[event] may not happen in a run"
"[event] voids your [score/time/rings]"
"[event] invalidates your [score/time/rings]"
and on the flip side...
"[mode] is to be used"
"[mode] must be used/enabled"

I am of the opinion that all illegal actions can be phrased with "you may not [xyz]" or "you may not [xyz] in a single run" (the latter generally for doing things more than once, though I don't like the word 'run' and would rather 'attempt' or something more... I dunno, specifically meaningful?) and that all mandatory actions can (and should) be phrased "[mode] must be used/enabled" (all the TA ones seem to use "is to be used", what is wrong with "must be used"?).


I also think that the rules page should have an overview of suspension/ban procedure and stuff. At the moment it is stated on the stat submission page, and is fairly common sense, but it's all a bit informal innit. :(

Just some FOOD for THOUGHT. Discuss like.
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Offline magnum12

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Re: Some General Thoughts
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2008, 10:32:50 am »
Bravo. You said exactly what's on my mind. For example, with Sonic 06, there's a specific rule on boss fights that would be more intuitive if it was stated as a general rule such as "When fighting a boss, unless stated otherwise, your run only counts when you reduce the boss' health to zero."
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Offline yse

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Re: Some General Thoughts
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2008, 11:04:30 am »
Upon discussion with CF in the chat I have deduced a PLAN OF ACTION.

1. Bullet points. Lots of bullet points. Make the rules more discernible from one another and all that.
2. A bunch of what we might term "general rules" apply to certain "classes" of games eg. classic, new handheld etc. Would it be possible to have general rules for these "classes" rather than having them at the top mixed in with the real general stuff?
3. And on the note of general rules, a wider class of general rules. To better understand what I mean, observe:
General Competition Rules
-TSC Rules
--Game specific rules
-TUSC Rules
--Game specific rules
etc.

More to come when it's not 3am and I'm not fucking tired.

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Offline CosmicFalcon

Re: Some General Thoughts
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2008, 12:38:05 pm »
Nice hierarchy. Makes sense, too.

If we want to go real overboard with rules...

-Site Rules
--(General) Competition Rules
---TSC Rules
----Specific Games
---TUSC Rules
----Specific Games
---TMC Rules
----Specific Games
...
--Forum Rules
--Chat Rules
--etc rules.

Although for outside competition I am pro common sense being promoted. i.e., ignore that.

Are there many rules that will span across all subsites th- oh... Gameshark I guess. Perhaps others.

I had another comment but I forgot it.
"A graph of cf's coolness as age increases would be exponential." - Stefan [14:26, 2008/08/23]
"I now realise that CF is complete and utter win." - Cruizer [13:46, 2009/10/23]

Offline Rolken

Re: Some General Thoughts
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2008, 01:58:53 am »
All sounds good, with the caveat that I would warn against overgeneralization. IE, this current rule:

"Any re-released version of this game (official or unofficial) that has been modified to create a functional change to level layouts is not permitted for use in competition."

seems somewhat more obtuse than just saying "ok guys no sonic jam and hacks because they change the levels". I mean, you could argue that the Sonic 1 spike bug fix violates that rule.
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Offline Taillow

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Re: Some General Thoughts
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2008, 02:03:18 am »
All sounds good, with the caveat that I would warn against overgeneralization. IE, this current rule:

"Any re-released version of this game (official or unofficial) that has been modified to create a functional change to level layouts is not permitted for use in competition."

seems somewhat more obtuse than just saying "ok guys no sonic jam and hacks because they change the levels". I mean, you could argue that the Sonic 1 spike bug fix violates that rule.
Actually, the spike bug glitch fix doesn't change the level layout (I assume).  It just changes the functions of spikes.  It doesn't relocate anything.
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Offline yse

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Re: Some General Thoughts
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2008, 02:04:00 am »
As I was just saying to Rolken:

[18:00:08] <mike89> here's my thinking on that general rule you just mentioned
[18:00:48] <mike89> "only official releases of games with the exception of sonic jam."
[18:00:52] <mike89> and then clarify by saying
[18:01:25] <mike89> this allows: -different revisions, ie REV 00, REV 01, and the Japanese version of Sonic 1 are all permitted
[18:02:03] <mike89> this disallows: -hacks (including such things as the original mode in Megamix), and prototype versions of the games

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Offline CosmicFalcon

Re: Some General Thoughts
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2008, 04:33:33 am »
If that is put in General though, be careful of wording. Considering that Sonic Jam has a chart, saying "Only official SEGA releases except for Sonic Jam" implies that to compete in that game you need some unofficial release. Perhaps leave that exception out there but use another rule saying "Sonic Jam may only be used to attain stats for the Sonic Jam chart."... though it should probably somehow be a clause within the official releases rule.
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"I now realise that CF is complete and utter win." - Cruizer [13:46, 2009/10/23]

Offline P.P.A.

Re: Some General Thoughts
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2008, 04:46:34 am »
"The time attack/"Easy" mode of Sonic Jam is forbidden for Sonic 1, 2, 3, and Knuckles submissions."
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Offline Magnezone

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Re: Some General Thoughts
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2008, 04:48:28 am »
On a somewhat related note, I propose that rules for a selected game be shown on the stastistical submission page in between the checkboxes and submit button every time someone goes to submit stats.

Offline CosmicFalcon

Re: Some General Thoughts
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2008, 07:47:12 am »
I second that proposal SkyL.

On an even less related note, has Gerbil put in a mandatory wait on the confirm stats screen? I think this is a pro idea, with wait time proportional to stats being submitted (maybe with a lower boundary of 10-15 seconds?). I mean, even for the veterans, that's hardly cause for aggro, is it?
"A graph of cf's coolness as age increases would be exponential." - Stefan [14:26, 2008/08/23]
"I now realise that CF is complete and utter win." - Cruizer [13:46, 2009/10/23]

Offline Thorn

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Re: Some General Thoughts
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2008, 03:56:05 pm »
"The time attack/"Easy" mode of Sonic Jam is forbidden for Sonic 1, 2, 3, and Knuckles submissions."

Normal mode is actually what is used for time attack mode; easy mode only has one act per zone. Both normal and time attack make infrequent changes to the level, but changes nevertheless. Most levels in TA mode won't see a difference between Normal and Original, but the few that do cause the mode to be banned altogether.

My beef with mike's rule is that the second line can be interpreted as "Sonic Jam is an unofficial but allowed release", when it's actually supposed to say "Sonic Jam is an official release, but only the original settings within may be used".
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Offline Rick_242

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Re: Some General Thoughts
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2008, 07:54:44 pm »
All sounds good, with the caveat that I would warn against overgeneralization. IE, this current rule:

"Any re-released version of this game (official or unofficial) that has been modified to create a functional change to level layouts is not permitted for use in competition."

seems somewhat more obtuse than just saying "ok guys no sonic jam and hacks because they change the levels". I mean, you could argue that the Sonic 1 spike bug fix violates that rule.
Actually, the spike bug glitch fix doesn't change the level layout (I assume).  It just changes the functions of spikes.  It doesn't relocate anything.

While that is true it makes it violates the rule more. Pretty much when you get hit by a spike in Sonic 1 with the spike glitch you get hurt and if you land on another spike it is Game Over. With the glitch fixed it does not give you Game Over which gives a pretty big difference for a small fix.

Say you're RAing. You land on a spike with a shield and land on another spike. Your RA is ruined. With the glitch fixed you don't lose all your rings because you have a proper recovery time. Same thing can be applied to a score run as rings contribute a lot towards scores.

Summarized the spike glitch affects TA, RA, and SA divisions and removing the spike glitch can cause a noticeable difference.
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Offline Taillow

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Re: Some General Thoughts
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2008, 08:21:16 pm »
All sounds good, with the caveat that I would warn against overgeneralization. IE, this current rule:

"Any re-released version of this game (official or unofficial) that has been modified to create a functional change to level layouts is not permitted for use in competition."

seems somewhat more obtuse than just saying "ok guys no sonic jam and hacks because they change the levels". I mean, you could argue that the Sonic 1 spike bug fix violates that rule.
Actually, the spike bug glitch fix doesn't change the level layout (I assume).  It just changes the functions of spikes.  It doesn't relocate anything.

While that is true it makes it violates the rule more. Pretty much when you get hit by a spike in Sonic 1 with the spike glitch you get hurt and if you land on another spike it is Game Over. With the glitch fixed it does not give you Game Over which gives a pretty big difference for a small fix.

Say you're RAing. You land on a spike with a shield and land on another spike. Your RA is ruined. With the glitch fixed you don't lose all your rings because you have a proper recovery time. Same thing can be applied to a score run as rings contribute a lot towards scores.

Summarized the spike glitch affects TA, RA, and SA divisions and removing the spike glitch can cause a noticeable difference.
But that doesn't change the level LAYOUT.  It doesn't relocate any spikes or platforms or ground or anything.
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