[Bilan]

<bitch>

So yeah I had to be -told- that you can rematch Johnny via the Viking Cup because I never saw the piddly arrow pointing down to the races underneath Wave Cyclone 2.

As such I boated all the way out to each spot and raced him like that. As such Im not pleased with the amount of time this wasted but I digress.

So basically, racing him in the Bullshit I mean Viking Cup forces you to use the nonupgraded bike which is Hella slow and also makes the Purple Emerald near impossible. Oh and it makes Scores boring because you cannot afford to boost through enemies because you'll fall behind and lose.

Whereas boating out to him lets you use your fully upgraded bike, which allows for faster times and higher scores to be obtained which is what TSC has been about for the past ever, right? Right. And also once you actually get to him you can rematch him an infinite number of tries until you return to the island anyway.

</bitch>

[Ring Rush]

Well on the topic of effort, I put a lot of effort in to some of my scores on Viking Cup, that could easily be beaten outside of it. So both ways are annoying to one side.

Also, may I point out that in every game so far, when there is an 'official' time attack mode you have to use it. Viking Cup is the 'official' mode for the water vehicles, therefore it should be used.

It sounds to me like you are angry you have to redo your stats and your only arguement is that Viking Cup is 'too hard', while I am using examples set from previous debates in TSC.

[Bilan]

It sounds to me like you are angry you have to redo your stats and your only arguement is that Viking Cup is 'too hard'

Until you factor in that I cleared all 7 races originally without upgrading.

Also you completely missed the point I was making; the upgrades allow for greater competition potential.

Viking Cup Purple Emerald is going to have -everyone- bundled around the 1:05:5x-8x mark whereas permitting upgrades might see some actual variation in the stats.

[Ring Rush]

But not really...more speed does not make more diversity among the upper players. They will still all be clumped, since all Viking Cup is is moving left to right and knowing when to boost. Speed plays no part in that. Also note that Johnny does not always finish at the same time; he has a handicap when you are in front of him, and you have a handicap when you are behind him. So you can beat Johnny by .3 seconds, but that doesn't mean you will have the same time as someone else who beats him by .3 seconds.

[Bilan]

€
Also note that Johnny does not always finish at the same time; he has a handicap when you are in front of him, and you have a handicap when you are behind him.

I think you may find that he actually follows an identical pattern every time; he only diverges when you do something that directly affects this such as boost ahead of him and knock an enemy out of the way that he runs into without fail for example, which I distinctly remember you can do in a later one (Although that actually hinders you). The only other way to alter his pattern slightly is to ram him and knock him off course. Which is useless anyway as he spends the whole of about .2 going back into Monotone Racer Mode

[Ring Rush]

It isn't as much the path he takes as it is how much he boosts and how fast he naturally goes. When he is behind you his boost fills faster and he is a lot quicker. This becomes more apparent near the end of the race when you get into the final stretch, or at the start of the race if you stop moving.

[Bilan]

It isn't as much the path he takes as it is how much he boosts and how fast he naturally goes.

Considering that to even beat him in the last 2 or 3 races you have to follow a set path yourself and boost at one specific time and hope you dont ram into everything in sight. I dont think it really matters. Purple without upgrades is essentially an automated race.

Also I consider your point about if you stop moving at the start to be total moot. So er, if you stand still he boosts away from you faster? Well er, NO SHIT, YOU'RE NOT MOVING FORWARDS. And even if you are he begins to boost away from you at the same time on every track. This includes when you get in front of him/are in front on the final straight.

I did pick up quite a bit from having to play light blue a few times and purple over and over you know.

[Ring Rush]

Actually, I'm saying if you stop at the start you'll get slightly faster, not he'll get slightly faster.

And if you say there is only one path when you are normal, it is the same when you are upgraded. Obviously if its the fastest one way it will be fastest the other way, with only minor variation. If you want to compete in races, you'ld still have to do this same 'winning path'. Whether or not it is to beat Johnny by a little or a lot doesn't matter, as we don't track Johnny's position in the rankings.

[Bilan]

Actually, I'm saying if you stop at the start you'll get slightly faster, not he'll get slightly faster.

Still moot, because why on God's green Earth would you bother doing that?

Also no, the variation is quite large between the modes as a matter of fact!

For example, most of the Viking Cup revolves around keeping up with Johnnys stupid afterboost disc things to try and keep your pitiful top speed up, whereas upgrades ensure that this crap like that is unnecessary; you already travel fast enough to keep up with him and so dont need to snake around to hit those, missing rings and the chance to attack enemies, and probably kill your combo and/or cause your infinite boost to run out which will affect your score and/or your time.

In terms of time I dont think I need to mention again the differences to the competition the upgrades would have instead of 8 people with 1:05:70-80 in Purple Emerald.

Edit: pwnt.

 <SkyL> erm
 <SkyL> johnny uses the same route every time
 <SkyL> no matter if you're behind him, in front of him, or whatever
 [RPG] Thank you
 [RPG] Thats exactly what Ive been trying to tell him
 [RPG] But NOOOOOOO

[Ring Rush]

What Johnny does really doesn't matter. Its just a side thing I threw in there, that I guessed hurt me more than it helped me.

But anyways, you are saying non-Viking Cup gives more competition, yet you just perfectly described a much more interesting competition, at least score wise. And as far as time goes, Viking Cup still tracks time. If you could only get within a .05 range and still beat him, they wouldn't bother addimg time tracking in. There is obviously more variation than you think.

[Bilan]

This is coming from the same series that makes you collect 200+ rings while falling in a tube on a snowboard, and you can get about 205 if you're damn good.

And also the "Get 100 rings in ~60 seconds" Secret Mission in Sonic Jam's Sonic World which is also ridiculously hard.

And er, describing how you are -forced- to miss points to keep up with Johnny is better than being able to go rack up a hi score? Dude are you even being serious anymore.

EDIT

So like I just tested one to try and provide myself with more ammunition. And to my intense irritance I discover that if you -dont beat Johnny then you dont even get your stats output-

Mymy.

So considering that you have to beat Johnny, and in the purple emerald race in particular, you literally have no time at all to spare, Purple Time == Purple Score.

[Ring Rush]

Edit: Post got deleted for some reason...just see the next post for it quoted.

[Bilan]

Okay, I feel like doing point-by-point responses. Yay.

This is coming from the same series that makes you collect 200+ rings while falling in a tube on a snowboard, and you can get about 205 if you're damn good.  Where was this? Whatever, doesn't matter. <-- Advance 1 Purple Emerald

And also the "Get 100 rings in ~60 seconds" Secret Mission in Sonic Jam's Sonic World which is also ridiculously hard. May I note that we have this chart on TSC? Way to shoot yourself in the foot. <-- We in fact, do not. The 100 ring mission TSC tracks is different to the secret mission.

And er, describing how you are -forced- to miss points to keep up with Johnny is better than being able to go rack up a hi score? Dude are you even being serious anymore. And in Sonic Advance 3 by doing time attack instead of easy mode on adventure I am -FORCING- myself to have to dodge more enemies. TSC isn't always about the easiest or fastest way, otherwise we would have 0 seconds on all SA2 m2s or 9,999,999 points on Cosmic Wall. <-- Except the former is impossible, 8:25 would be achieveable with abuse of the pause menu and the latter is only possible with the use of stacking speed shoes in order to clear a huge jump.

EDIT

So like I just tested one to try and provide myself with more ammunition. And to my intense irritance I discover that if you -dont beat Johnny then you dont even get your stats output- ...well duh <--Not worth a response

Mymy. K.<--Nor this

So considering that you have to beat Johnny, and in the purple emerald race in particular, you literally have no time at all to spare, Purple Time == Purple Score. Except not. I severly doubt to beat Johnny you have to hit the exact same rings and boost at the exact same enemies every time. <--I dare you to try and prove that consistently

Also if you really want upgrades, you could try to get it into freestyle. Yet I say that isn't really worth it.

I have no intention of seeing them freestyled.

[Ring Rush]

This is coming from the same series that makes you collect 200+ rings while falling in a tube on a snowboard, and you can get about 205 if you're damn good.  Where was this? Whatever, doesn't matter. <-- Advance 1 Purple Emerald Okay, I've never played this game, so I wouldn't know.

And also the "Get 100 rings in ~60 seconds" Secret Mission in Sonic Jam's Sonic World which is also ridiculously hard. May I note that we have this chart on TSC? Way to shoot yourself in the foot. <-- We in fact, do not. The 100 ring mission TSC tracks is different to the secret mission. Never played this game either, so I'll take your word for it.

And er, describing how you are -forced- to miss points to keep up with Johnny is better than being able to go rack up a hi score? Dude are you even being serious anymore. And in Sonic Advance 3 by doing time attack instead of easy mode on adventure I am -FORCING- myself to have to dodge more enemies. TSC isn't always about the easiest or fastest way, otherwise we would have 0 seconds on all SA2 m2s or 9,999,999 points on Cosmic Wall. <-- Except the former is impossible, 8:25 would be achieveable with abuse of the pause menu and the latter is only possible with the use of stacking speed shoes in order to clear a huge jump. Both are possible. For the ~0s thing, you can restart after a restart/death to drop your time even further. For Cosmic Wall, it uses a new glitch that is perfectly legal in everything but score, not a widely banned speed shoe glitch.

Pointless stuff removed here to save space...

So considering that you have to beat Johnny, and in the purple emerald race in particular, you literally have no time at all to spare, Purple Time == Purple Score. Except not. I severly doubt to beat Johnny you have to hit the exact same rings and boost at the exact same enemies every time. <--I dare you to try and prove that consistently  There are hundreds of rings and about a hundred enemies and spikeballs. Do you honestly think that you will always hit the exact same combination every time you do it?

[Bilan]

Do you honestly expect to beat Johnny and take out enemies while doing it? Go try this and then make that point again, as for the ring grabbing, if they're not in the path of the...things he leaves behind....that boost you, forget them, you dont have time to stray.

"Both are possible. For the ~0s thing, you can restart after a restart/death to drop your time even further." B& tactic, unless Im very much mistaken, and thus an irrelevant comparison.

[Ring Rush]

Do you honestly expect to beat Johnny and take out enemies while doing it? Go try this and then make that point again, as for the ring grabbing, if they're not in the path of the...things he leaves behind....that boost you, forget them, you dont have time to stray. You underestimate competition, there will be people who can do more than others. There is certainly enough in this level allow a very large variety of things hit, even when trying to stay on the same path.

"Both are possible. For the ~0s thing, you can restart after a restart/death to drop your time even further." B& tactic, unless Im very much mistaken, and thus an irrelevant comparison. Well by your logic earlier, it shouldn't be banned, because that would be making all the times higher than they can be for no reason. This was brought in to show that TSC is a lot more about who can get the absolute best time.

[Bilan]

There is a slight difference behind the logic of allowing upgrades (Guess what, we do in SA2B and DX!!111!) to vehicles that are obtainable during the course of the game and usable in a mode that mirrors one already in game as opposed to abusing dieing and restarting to reduce the timer as low as possible.

As for your first point, prove it and Ill gladly accept that.

[Rolken]

There's not really much precedent to cite in this specific situation. Sure, we favor official TA modes, but this is the first official TA mode that restricts your capabilities for no particular reason. We don't favor TA mode just because It Is TA Mode, but rather because it generally offers specific benefits (time tracking) and removal of gameplay elements not conducive to TA (lives). In this instance, if using TA mode decreases the depth of the competition, then it seems detrimental.

[Bilan]

I notice a complete lack of opposing posts and points against racing Johnny outside of Viking Cup since yesterday~

So can we adjust the rules to permit it now?

[Ring Rush]

Well, based on the fact that what Rolken said can apply either way, no. He said, "In this instance, if using TA mode decreases the depth of the competition, then it seems detrimental". Since both of us have been too lazy to do actual tests, we cannot determine which mode is better for competition.

[Bilan]

Except if you'd actually read my posts at any point during this topic you'd realise that I've been saying that non-viking cup has a greater potential for competition due to lower times and higher score potential.

Let me try and say this again in the hope that this time maybe you'll notice~

And Ill use Purple Emerald again because its the only one I remember off hand.

Ok, so in Viking Cup!
Well, not, but with no upgrades.

45 minutes of constant playing yielded a 1:05:78 and 188xxx as my score.

So I had a few attempts in the bath last night and got times ranging from 1:02-1:04, while on a score run, and had scores ranging from 450K (If I got hit) up to 535K

So..

Viking Cup | Non-VC

Times: 1:05:78 | 1:02:xx
Scores: 188K | 535K

So um, your going to try and say Non-VC has greater competition potential again now? Or do I have to do another one of these.

[Groudon]

RPG asked me to add my opinion, so here it is.

I haven't done many of these races in Viking Cup, but I did give the Purple Emerald a try and hated it.  If I'm ever crazy enough to play that again, I don't want it to be in Viking Cup due to the MAJOR disadvantage you have compared to non-VC.
I'd say to allow non-VC since the last couple races (especially Purple) are near impossible to win without upgrades.

[PsyBorg]

Both Viking Cup and non-VC have competition potential, so I say in with BOTH. :D

Of course, nobody likes that, so my voice is useless.

[yse]

Well, I'm convinced. Either mode may be used in competition.

[Bilan]

Score!

[Ben]

There are loads of lame mission charts which are just slightly different to normal levels, so why can't we have charts for both Emerald Races and the Viking Cup? Or just add one set in freestyle? Or that Races category which is looking very lonely....