[douglas]

http://www.wired.com/gaming/virtualworlds/commentary/games/2007/04/gamesfrontiers_0423

Interesting read, this one.  I tend towards the puritanical side of things, although I do read game guides if:
1) the game is large and I want to find all the hidden stuffs after I'm done with the main game (Oblivion, Zelda)
2) the game is an online competitive one, and it's for strat comparison (I read a lot of ZH stuffs)
3) the game is a strategy one like Civ4 or FM07 as above
4) the game design is broken and/or retarted (good call eggFL :)

Where do you guys stand on this one?

[eggFL]

I'm disgusted in the mentality that using a guide could possibly be considered cheating.

Maybe it would be cheating if the games people normally use guides with weren't pointlessly cryptic or cheap.

I still don't see how games like Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker can be practically completed and enjoyed without using a guide. (unless you're a gaming vet and/or have too much time) and Myst, wtf, myst is obviously intended to be used with a guide.

And I hate the double standard that if you use a guide it's considered "cheating" but if you refuse to use a guide it's still not the game's fault but yours, even if you aren't able to complete it. It's confusing and frustrating.

Let me give you how retarded some shit in games are, here is an excerpt from a Vexx FAQ:

Section A) You have to climb on the walls of a structure and jump to reach
the top.
B) You have to push the 2 boxes below so that they are under the hole in
the wall. Then, you push the box above on the top of the 2 other ones. You
then push that box into the hole in the wall.
C) You have to climb up 3 yellow poles to reach the top on a spinning
platform and then do a pulse jump to go up.
D) You have to jump over 3 gaps using the Long Jump to reach the other
side.
E) You have to get past 3 spinning discs that try to blow you away to reach
the other side.
F) You have to get past the 3 Shreeks. (The enemies attached to poles)

The goal here is to hit the black switches in the right order to get the
Heart. There are switches placed after each section's puzzle and switches
around the fountain.
This is the order you have to hit the black switches :

1) Switch of section D (after the puzzle)
2) Switch in front of section C (by the fountain)
3) Switch of section F (after the puzzle)
4) Switch in front of section F (by the fountain)
5) Switch of section C (after the puzzle)
6) Switch in front of section A (by the fountain)
7) Switch of section B (after the puzzle)
8) Switch in front of section E (by the fountain)
9) Switch of section A (after the puzzle)
10) Switch in front of section D (by the fountain)
11) Switch of section E (after the puzzle)
12) Switch in front of section B (by the fountain)

If you hit the right switch, it'll glow green or yellow.
If you hit the wrong switch, it'll glow red and you'll loose health.

After you hit all the switches in the right order, the Heart will appear
at the top of the fountain in the middle.

You have to go back and forth 12 times in a large area to press the switches in the correct order.

How are you supposed to know which order to press them? YOU DON'T, you have to guess through trial and error.

Even without a guide you would need well over an hour and a pencil & paper (or really good memory) and you would press over 100 switches to find the correct order. And you would die countless times because pressing the wrong switch loses health unless you spend even more time backtracking to kill enemies to get health pickups.

If you used the guide for that stage in Vexx would that be "cheating"? Aren't developers the ones cheating us and taking us for a ride?

"On top of that, the game industry has actually co-opted the idea of "cheats" -- by hiding secret power-ups inside the games that publishers slowly, teasingly leak to the public as a marketing tactic. (They also collaborate on the creation of walkthroughs and game guides.)"

Anyway, good topic.

[magnum12]

Agreed. I primarily use faqs to find secrets or for conducting research in terms of game play strategy and tactics in order to figure out how to really play a game well. There are some games (most RPGS) in which you'll probably need a faq to find all the cool bonus content.

[General Throatstomper]

Using guides is a perfectly acceptable way of playing. Some games taunt you by putting all the decent secrets/skills in places impossibly hard to find...and giving you no second chance to get them should you pass it by (by which I mean, stop that Final Fantasy).

Sometimes, though, using a guide defeats the purpose of the game. Why bother in something such as an adventure game where the whole point is finding out what to do? If anyone brings up the game "Deja Vu" as a counterpoint which required some of the most offbeat tasks you can think of...then I have no response. Hiding in the laundry bin so the cleaning service will shuttle you to a mob-run dry cleaner allowing you to get a map so you don't die in a desert is something you won't find out on your own.

Cheating online is just dumb. No further explanation.

Using something such a gameshark to superpower the character shouldn't be done on your first playthrough of a game, but is certainly enjoyable and not to be frowned upon.

In other words, do what you will so long as it isn't completely stupid and it doesn't affect others' enjoyment of the game.

[Taco]

I try to avoid "cheating" at all costs, though I was almost tempted to for Metroid Prime 100% last weekend

But a game like OoT, I definetly had to use the guide for all 100 skulltulas. How the FUCK are you supposed to know you have to play the song of storms at some sketchy rock or tree in the middle of nowhere to make a hole appear? You'd literally have to play the song every time you took a step just tio make sure a damn hole doesn't appear...

[X-5]

i used to cheat all the time because almost every game i played I couldnt beat :(

nowadays I can do them pretty well, ive went back and played alot of games i cheated at and beat them, which gives you such a rewarding feeling as compared to cheating to beat it, but uhh anymore i guess id cheat if i beat the game and wanna have alot of fun with it using a gameshark or something which can provide unlimited fun for some games with the proper codes

also genus' post is perfect, it summed up my thoughts exactly.

[Rick_242]

For some reason we cheated when we were little because we phailed at games. Then as time progressed we became better and beat the games we cheat... however, RPG games need things like guides or FAQs because honestly, you could a year trying to find everything and still not find them.

Also, as stated by my colleague, cheating online is pathetic. No further explanation.

Nowadays, cheating is used for fun when a game is already beat. I myself have cheated before because some of the conditions to complete a certain objective was absurd. >:(

[Spinballwizard]

The only "cheating" I do is guides, and that's rare. I usually try to figure things out on my own. (Though the Ice Palace or whatever in LttP-GBA I did consult GameFAQs on.)

In-game cheats, I try to avoid. Though for some reason I have a hard time resisting the item duplication code (if only for infinite rare candy) in Pokémon Red. >_>

Edit: Also lol700th post.

* Spinballwizard shot

[Conker T. Squirrel]

I only use faqs when I'm desperate, like magnum12, namely RPG's.

[Rolken]

The whole notion of 'cheating' in electronic games is usually silly. The entire concept of cheating is to gain an unfair advantage, and that's a concept with minimal relevance in single player games (where there's no opponent to unfairly compromise) and higher but still small relevance in multiplayer games, because it's simply nearly impossible to fool or trick a program. The sole exceptions are using an external program/device that modifies the operation of the game (GameShark, aimbots) or violating agreed-upon rules imposed by the players rather than the program itself (evasion/sleep clause in pokemon rby).

Calling faqs/guides cheating is about as dumb as calling researching chess strategy or reading about M:TG duels cheating, and it's a level of absurdity under which basically anyone who's ever played an IRL game at a high level is a "cheater", because they don't have this taboo that learning about a game is somehow wrong. But I think we're all mostly in agreement.

Play games whatever way you find fun.

[eggFL]

I was playing FF4 yesterday and I realized that after I beat it, I have to go through it at least one more time with a guide. FF games have too many cool powerups and even easter eggs so not using a guide with 'em and certain other types of games would be a waste.

But a guide shouldn't be needed to actually be able to complete the game on the first playthrough thats just effin retarded.

[douglas]

I have an FF addicted flatmate, who always buys the game guide a new FF game and plays it through with the guide open beside her.  I give her much stick about this, and her response is "Well, I'm not as good as you".  While this is obviously true, surely the way to get better is to try?

Meh, just a random thought.

[Antronach]

1) the game is large and I want to find all the hidden stuffs after I'm done with the main game (Oblivion, Zelda)

Well, it just makes sense. Why ruin a perfectly good game by cheating right at the beggining. God Mode on level one is pathetic. Hell, the only time I would ever consider cheating is to find the solution to a puzzle that is taking me days to figure out, of course, I haven't beaten the game yet. Once I do, I'll check the guides to see if I missed anything. Then comes the Actionreplay!

[eggFL]

Using guides isn't bad at all. I just hate two things. Games that force you to use them, and people who try to shove guilt on those who use them.

Although most Final Fantasy games are pretty clean.

Anyway, I'd never actually buy a guide.

[Antronach]

Using guides isn't bad at all. I just hate two things. Games that force you to use them, and people who try to shove guilt on those who use them.

Although most Final Fantasy games are pretty clean.

Anyway, I'd never actually buy a guide.

Yeah, why buy it when you can read it at the store. ^.^

[Auriman1]

Yeah, why buy it when you can read it at the store. ^.^

Been there, done that :P

I mainly use those guides on gamefaqs and such nowadays. I normally only use them for the really nit-picky things to get 100% after I've already beaten the game. Else, it never really feels like I finished the game.

[Marth]

I try to avoid using guides, but sometimes I just have to use them. It's not cheating,
but it feels better to not use a guide. I'm in a big hurry, so I'm skipping most of the thread.

Vexx: WHAT!!!! I LOVED THAT PUZZLE!!!!! There's a pattern to it.
All the statues match but two. Step on the buttons for those two statues.
(One is at the fountain, while the other is at the edge of the area.)
Then, all the statues will change to match those two, and another two will stand out.
Repeat with those two statues.

[eggFL]

Vexx: WHAT!!!! I LOVED THAT PUZZLE!!!!! There's a pattern to it.
All the statues match but two. Step on the buttons for those two statues.
(One is at the fountain, while the other is at the edge of the area.)
Then, all the statues will change to match those two, and another two will stand out.
Repeat with those two statues.

Huh so there IS a clue behind it. Huh how about that.

It's still crap though!

[Marth]

Taco: Get a Rumble Pak. Or just play on GameCube. (I haven't gotten all the Skulltulas yet,
except with the unlimited Skulltula glitch, but I plan to do it the honest way on GameCube.
I might've used a guide for most of them before, but I won't remember much anymore.)

About AR, yeah, I use float codes a lot in games I've completed. And whatever else is interesting
(Wario World's size modifier, Sonic Adventure DX's random effects from stage select codes,
Metroid Prime's third-person mode, Super Smash Bros. Melee's debug mode).

[JBertolli]

I used to play some games on a separate memory card using action replay (gc) but the disc broke when I was playing the Wii. Now I can't cheat using action replay. I also used to buy guide books but not anymore.

[Alondite]

  Personally, I'm not a fan of using guides or FAQs of any sort. It's much more satisfying to do something yourself with no help, even if it can get frustrating at times. for me though, I tend to get more frustrated in myself because I can't figure something out, or I can't do something, than I do the game.
 
 If you absolutely NEED to use a guide or FAQ to figure something out, it's usually a sign of bad game design (or your own stupidity in some cases  >> ). Alot of games like to have numerous sidequests, and nowhere in the game do they even give you so much as a hint that said sidequest even exists, and if they do it's obscure and nonsensical (Final Fantasy comes to mind.....).

 Even still, I'm not a fan of using guides, so even the obscure things I try to figure out myself, and usually end up stumbling onto accidentally.

 So anyway, that's my two cents.