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ATTENTION: Sonic3Knuckles


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Offline Bilan

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ATTENTION: Sonic3Knuckles
« on: February 16, 2007, 01:01:30 pm »
Quote from: Competition Rules
Game manipulation devices such as Game Shark, Turbo features on controllers, and ROM save states must not be used.

Case in point: http://www.soniccenter.org/members/sonic3knuckles/sonic_adventure_2_b/times/radical_highway/mission_1
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Offline Groudon

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Re: ATTENTION: Sonic3Knuckles
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2007, 06:09:22 am »
It's his most recent one.  And this is SA2.  He used Sonic on this level, which can only be done using Action Replay.

Offline Rick_242

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Re: ATTENTION: Sonic3Knuckles
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2007, 12:05:12 am »
I'd say they were the same but, I just remembered the bounce bracelet + rail = speedy start.
<Sondow> also what
<Sondow> since when was S&K an expansion pack to s3
<Sondow> wiki LIES

Offline SadisticMystic

Re: ATTENTION: Sonic3Knuckles
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2007, 12:16:33 am »
I've seen the video.  No bounce was used (you couldn't speed up the opening rail with bounce even if you wanted to, but I'm sure there are parts later on where it would help).

This reminds me of another case from the past.  Cybrax had a Red Mountain (S) time that was backed up by a video in which a 999-rings code was shown.  That code had the ramifications that every ring collected would award a 1-up, and (more importantly for the purposes of a speedrun) you could take as many hits as you wanted without worrying about the vulnerability of having no rings.  However, no hits were taken on the successful lives.

In each case, there was clearly potential for advantage that wouldn't be possible on an unmodified game, but the advantage wasn't used.  There were full videos in both cases.  Should things like that be allowed with proper backup?  Should they be dismissed on the grounds of being pointless when not utilized, and only increasing suspicion?  I'd rather not hijack this topic with a full-fledged poll, but put in your input.

Offline Waxwings

Re: ATTENTION: Sonic3Knuckles
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2007, 12:25:43 am »
I think it should still be counted, but only with video proof.

Offline Spinballwizard

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Re: ATTENTION: Sonic3Knuckles
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2007, 02:05:34 am »
Unfortunately, not everyone can provide video proof.

Only cheat device I have used is the Genesis Game Genie, which I haven't used in years, and don't use when TA/RA/SAing.

My original thought on this matter was the fact that you can't be sure of what goes on all the time. I didn't think a Sonic-in-Radical-Highway would work.

I suppose another rules reference illustrates my point:
Quote
In accordance with the previous rule, the only character that may be used in a character-named division is the named character.
For those who weren't here/don't remember, this stemmed from problems involving the use of both Sonic and Tails in Sonic 2, where using Tails brought distinct advantages to the "Sonic" division. (Notably in Metropolis, with much-increased speed on screws.) This is a bit of a different situation, but the same general concept.

Sonic and Shadow are pretty much functionally equivalent, with 2 main differences. Firstly, Sonic has Magic Hands. Doesn't really do much of anything, but it's there.

The other one that has been mentioned already is the bounce attack, which, while not being present in this vid, does have an advantage. (Hopefully I don't need to reiterate that.)

That said, TSC does allow some things of similar nature to things that have a potential advantage that aren't used. You can use a controller with a turbo button as long as you don't use the feature; you can use an emulated console and a ROM as long as you don't use savestates, slowdowns, other TAS tricks, etc. And then, of course, there are the freestyle divisions for particularly abusive glitches.

Though my stand remains the same: Cheat devices are an explicit no-no, and there's the character/division rule as well. (Note the big differentiation in the rules: They say you can't use a cheat device period, whereas with Turbo and Savestates they just say you can't use the feature. Device vs. feature is my big separation.)
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Offline douglas

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Re: ATTENTION: Sonic3Knuckles
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2007, 08:44:56 am »
I call the game should be played in it's original, unmodified, as-distributed state.  Then we can guarantee a level playing field.

Although I'll admit to being hypocritical enough to still laud using emulators ;)
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Offline Rick_242

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Re: ATTENTION: Sonic3Knuckles
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2007, 09:07:55 pm »
There's a vid? I've got to check it out sometime. Anyway, the rules should not be violated in anyway but, I don't think it matters much seeing as how he improved his time after he used Sonic.
<Sondow> also what
<Sondow> since when was S&K an expansion pack to s3
<Sondow> wiki LIES

Offline Stefan

Re: ATTENTION: Sonic3Knuckles
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2007, 09:14:46 pm »
er, his fastest current time is with sonic.

This is a tricky issue.. it's not a deal so much of whether or not s3k cheated as much as whether we allow potential to cheat or not. If you think there's the potential for someone to cheat, should that potential be allowed to be used ingame? He didn't cheat: the video says that. He didn't get any advantages from using sonic... but he could have. So few people are going to record their AR runs that we won't be sure whether an advantage was gained or not.

I personally am undecided on the issue.

Offline Marth

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Re: ATTENTION: Sonic3Knuckles
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2007, 11:06:17 pm »
I read somewhere that Sonic (in SA2) is easier to control than Shadow,
and he has better acceleration but a slightly lower top speed. I don't know if it's true.

About using AR and emulators and stuff like that, I don't have a problem with it, as long as it
doesn't provide an advantage. I don't know about unlimited lives, since it does give a small
advantage. (I get frustrated often at the slowness of collecting 100 rings dozens and dozens of times,
just to waste all those lives on a few seconds of play, and I have actually run out of lives in SA(DX).)
I don't really care if other players use it, but I prefer to do my time-attacks without AR.
It feels more honest, plus it eliminates any chance of being banned from a new rule.
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Offline Waxwings

Re: ATTENTION: Sonic3Knuckles
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2007, 03:26:10 pm »
And this is the trouble.
We don't know.
I don't think we should go all nuts over one video.
It's simpler to just redo it.

Offline Taco

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Re: ATTENTION: Sonic3Knuckles
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2007, 03:54:00 pm »
I don't get it. Why doesn't he just do it with shadow?


Offline Waxwings

Re: ATTENTION: Sonic3Knuckles
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2007, 04:05:36 pm »
He was doing it for a request and beat his record while he was doing it.

Offline Cream147

Re: ATTENTION: Sonic3Knuckles
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2007, 02:49:01 pm »
If this person were to come here, he'd probably be more than happy to redo his run using Shadow (which I believe he should do). However, he doesn't appear to have came...

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