[X-5]

ahh wtf, here's how I stand on this so no one is confused.

-Either NO switch abuse and timestop
-NO switch abuse and no timestop

And F-Man, to be quite honest, why do you think it matters if you accidently hit the switch more than once just because the game glitched?   Just hit it enough times to get through the level, and only that- it's not such a big deal as groudon has been trying to say.

[F-Man]

If you can hit it more than once, then why should you be stopped from doing it until your time is 99:59? It could also cause a difference between first and second places, as one would have hit the switch more than the other, having a few seconds advantage. People would eventually just intentially hit them more to get first place and there'd be no end.

[X-5]

I guess you have a point there as I never thought of it that way; screw it then- i'm out of ideas, people who have to be cheap just to be ahead by 1 second really screw things up huh? :/

[magnum12]

I guess everyone misunderstood what I said, I never said the switch abuse should be allowed, just a suggestion of removing the timestop glitch as well, so the level would basically be played like any other Gamma level.

That doesn't fix the issue of switches being way too easy to shoot more than once. And you'd just be adding another unnecessary rule.

(By the way, Groudon, I have no idea where you got the idea you could get high times such as these without switch abuse)

I think the best way to handle the new ruling is a re-wording such as this one. "You may not shoot a switch more than three consequtive times." This accounts for accidental shots and nips switch scalping in the bud since you need to shoot the switches many times to get a decent benefit. I'm still also in favor of moving the time freeze to free style as ParaGod suggested.

[SadisticMystic]

Timestop, shoot a switch 3 times, move on, shoot the next 3 times, move on, get to the boss chamber, escape again, go back to the first switch, shoot it 3 times, and GameCube still gets to 99 minutes, but in an even more annoyingly long way.

[sonicam]

Omg..., how about you just subtract one second from your time for everytime you shoot a switch more than once. Accidents happen, so correct them. If you are mashing B trying to shoot the switch and shoot it more than you are able to count, well, too bad and don't do that.

[X-5]

Timestop, shoot a switch 3 times, move on, shoot the next 3 times, move on, get to the boss chamber, escape again, go back to the first switch, shoot it 3 times, and GameCube still gets to 99 minutes, but in an even more annoyingly long way.

No one is gunna spend 97 hours getting that, and they'd eventually screw up and either die or drop in the gamma fight, but whatever if magnum's idea isn't good then sonicam properly worded what i've been trying to say all along. It should work, just like you can subtract dug up rings.

[F-Man]

Omg..., how about you just subtract one second from your time for everytime you shoot a switch more than once. Accidents happen, so correct them. If you are mashing B trying to shoot the switch and shoot it more than you are able to count, well, too bad and don't do that.

That'd be an idea if I could actually be sure when it happens. Most of the time, I wasn't. There's not even a 1-second bonus that appears on screen (or if it does, it doesn't always appear), so you'd have to be checking the timer constantly.

EDIT: besides, not only is the rule awfully arbitrary (why forcing you do shoot switches no more than once? Why not 0, or 2, or 3, or any number at all? All are just as arbitrary as 1), but you guys are also trying to force more complicatedness into it. mike in the channel even suggested that you could shoot it more than once, but not more than once per in-game second (so if the time is frozen, you can't do it more than once). Not only could that be abused, but it is even more ridiculous. As I've said in the channel before, if you guys really are ready to make such rules for the stage, just delete the stage entirely. That'd be better and far less ridiculous than all the nonsense you're throwing at it.

[magnum12]

Sigh, this chaos is why I think my suggestion plus no time freeze glitch is the best way to go. I know my suggestion is harsh and breaks the "if the game allows it, use it" precedent, but based on the circumstances, its nessecary and does account for an issue F-Man talked about (accidental fire plus not being sure if you hit it or not). If we only deal with one issue (time freeze or switch scalping), the stage would still be busted because of the presence of the other exploit. I think part of the problem was that we didn't discuss this soon enough. We probably should have talked about it in February. (This issue is reminding me of how we delayed doing something about TBG and now its become hard to deal with.) Stuff like this is why I believe in the "sheathed sword" tactic of leadership.
-Definition: "Sheathed sword" is a strategy talked about in Sun Tzu's Art of War. This strategy says that the best way to deal with a problem (if possible) is to find and eliminate it early (often times behind the scenes) before it grows into a much bigger one down the road.

[sonicam]

Omg..., how about you just subtract one second from your time for everytime you shoot a switch more than once. Accidents happen, so correct them. If you are mashing B trying to shoot the switch and shoot it more than you are able to count, well, too bad and don't do that.

That'd be an idea if I could actually be sure when it happens. Most of the time, I wasn't. There's not even a 1-second bonus that appears on screen (or if it does, it doesn't always appear), so you'd have to be checking the timer constantly.

EDIT: besides, not only is the rule awfully arbitrary (why forcing you do shoot switches no more than once? Why not 0, or 2, or 3, or any number at all? All are just as arbitrary as 1), but you guys are also trying to force more complicatedness into it. mike in the channel even suggested that you could shoot it more than once, but not more than once per in-game second (so if the time is frozen, you can't do it more than once). Not only could that be abused, but it is even more ridiculous. As I've said in the channel before, if you guys really are ready to make such rules for the stage, just delete the stage entirely. That'd be better and far less ridiculous than all the nonsense you're throwing at it.

You don't really need the +1sec indicator to appear on the screen to know that you acquired one second added to your time. There is a certain jingle that indicates that a second has been added to the timer. If you hear more than one, then you hit it more than once and/or more than one second was added.

If this switch is really that much of a big deal, don't shoot it, step on it.

If everything still is a huge problem, then erase the stage like F-Man said because if Groudon says that the rules are "lenient" (which they aren't, one centisecond is very important to competitions, look at ParaGod's new Green Hill SA2B time vs. Cybrax's 3 year record, centiseconds matter), then I'm sure other people well/do feel the same way, then get rid of it.

[X-5]

that gets me wondering, should I delete my Gamma/HS time simply because I wouldn't know if I shot a switch twice accidently or not?

[F-Man]

that gets me wondering, should I delete my Gamma/HS time simply because I wouldn't know if I shot a switch twice accidently or not?

Keep it. Why care about breaking a rule that is just so broken in itself?

In fact, I just resubmitted my real record.

[Marth]

See the subject of my post? Someone should do the same thing to the thread.

There must be something better that can be done. The existing rule could void just about any time.
I can't be 100% sure I didn't hit a switch twice on my run months or years ago.
(You could say, "just do it again", but I don't know if I want to, or if I could match my old time.
Also, if making everyone redo their runs is no concern, then why not just ban shooting switches entirely?)

This still seems flawed, but I support a reasonable limit on shooting switches.
Maybe it could be three shots per life (instead of 3 consecutive shots).
Or, if there's absolutely nothing that will work, we can just leave it the way it was, with no rules.

And now I'll complain more about the rules:

Also, there should be some more general rules that forbid any kind of "unlimited (whatever)" tricks.
Why was the Gamma rule added so quickly, when other rules were suggested long ago?
If "unlimited" tricks are forbidden, just say they are. It's dumb to just shoot down scores as they come.
(No digging up rings. Okay, now you can't reuse a switch for rings. Oh, and now you can't
hit a bell after making it disappear. Oh, and you can't repeat Amy's Twinkle Park for more rings. Oh, and...)

And, what's going on with the level complete rule? The Sky Deck thing should be allowed if
the Hydrocity boss skip is allowed, and maybe even if the HC glitch isn't.
So if HC is allowed, so is SD.
If HC is not allowed, SD may be allowed.
If SD is allowed, HC may be allowed.

[Stefan]

I know thread necromancy is a sin, but the site was down :o. But this definitely is not resolved.

Anyway, can somebody tell me what was wrong with the old system? Everybody seemed perfectly content with the unlimited time system.. version differences are always allowed so I would say let everyone get a high time as possible on their system.

The problem with this new way is it's near impossible to not shoot a switch twice by accident while going for high time. It requires you don't shoot, which in the end knocks your time way, way down. It kills the whole idea of Gamma's levels.

There is NO SOLUTION for this problem, if it is one. It's just not going to happen. You can either let all times count, or delete the category.  No other way will fix this.

[SadisticMystic]

I first brought attention to this problem not because I thought there was anything wrong with the procedure, but because Sonic Adventure is dumb about displaying the end result.  My 118:14.11 run is displayed as either 99:59.99, 99:14.11, or 18:14.11 depending on where you look, but nowhere can you see the full 118+ minutes.  I was familiar enough with the system to know what my time was, but there's no real way to prove times above 100 minutes (with the possible hackish exception from 100-102 that I mentioned in the first post, and that requires a significant understanding of the game on the verifier's end).  It would be just fine as a 28-minute version difference if only there were actually a way to see it unambiguously as such.

[yse]

And in one of those weird ways, bringing attention to something for a completely different reason can bring the entire method under scrutiny. I pointed out its similarity to ring and score scalping tricks already known and banned in this and other games.

I do agree, however, that the decision was hasty, but the move on F-Man and Groudon's part to resubmit wasn't a smart move, I feel. We were (and I suppose, still are) in a transitional phase, and I know F-Man has enough records in this game to care too much about one more. ;)

I would be in favour of deleting the chart if no suitable solution can be found. It's a shame it has to come to this though...

[F-Man]

I say use the DC version for a better achievement and submit the real time you get.

If you got something above 99 minutes and the trial says 21:55:75, obviously it means you got 121:55:75, so submit that. Can't prove it? Yes you can, make a video. Not like we require proofs here anyway.

If that doesn't work, then let's fall to trying to get as close as 99 minutes as possible, which is retarded, and generally avoided at TSC, so let's remove the stage instead.

[SadisticMystic]

New ruling, hopefully to settle this for good: HS-G time chart is removed entirely, as per a consensus reached by myself, mike89, and F-Man.  Now we can move on to other things.

[magnum12]

Kind of sad for this to reach such a level that the entire stage get cut, but its for the best. The total time's still account for Hot Shelter though (will time account for this eventually?).

[sonicam]

when someone updates a Gamma time, Hot Shelter's time effects should be eradicated from their total time. This might be a problem for someone like VMU who doesn't show up often. My HS\G was removed before and I never bothered to resubmit so I currently have a hole in Total Gamma yet I'm missing no Gamma times due to the new chart. Updating in the category should make thing right I assume.

[yse]

I can think of a workaround for this. Since the class has been removed but the stats not, the stats should be suspended when class obsoletion takes place. In the meantime I think I'll find all stats from the currently suspended classes and suspend them myself.

[Marth]

There you go, deleting stuff without my permission! Er, I mean, without properly discussing it.
(Just like at Cyberscore. People go and hastily decide on rules within 2-4 days- so quickly that I miss it.)
What exactly was so terrible about the chart? There was competition. The stage isn't totally broken.
Now, I have to depend on Cyberscore for HS rankings. I'm sure everyone here would love that.
But really, a list of charts that misses an obvious and important stage is un-awesome,
and this is lowering TSC's awesomeness in the area that matters- in "the best game ever made".

Plus, deleting stuff always causes problems. Just like with deleting records instead of reducing them to nothing.

[Bilan]

and this is lowering TSC's awesomeness in the area that matters- in "the best game ever made".

But it hasnt affected SPA at all :<

[Stefan]

first off, Marth, this decision was sitting around for months with no resolution. November-March is certainly not a period of 2-4 days. This had been debated on and off forever. Keeping the chart caused mroe problems than deleting it. Nobody but you followed to newly placed rule, there was no way to prove high times perfectly, there was no resolution on the method used to record your time. Basically, this was an extremely controversial chart.

Second, hot shelter gamma is not an important chart in SADX. Removing it does not kill sa1's essence. This isn't like removing EC-S. HS-G was relatively unimportant int he scheme of things.

Third, even F-MAN, champion of SADX, voted that removing the chart was a valid option. If someone who likes sa1 that much voted to remove the stage, we can be assured that it really wasn't providing that much to TSC. The chart didn't provide much competition. Hitting a switch for 45 minutes isn't exactly the world's most involved and competitive thing. i don't really want to spend 40 minutes for a failed attempt at the boss. The stage may have had plenty of room for error and thus room to be better than another, it still really didn't provide much outside those willing to be really patient.

Removing the stage was the best choice, IMO.

[X-5]

I completely agree with stefan, which is why I never attempted a 99 minute run even when I knew how because I knew i'd fail majorly at the boss.

I really doubt anyone gives a damn about such a broken stage anyway, now if anyone takes away emerald coast/sonic then we're gunna have problems

[Marth]

Logged in quickly for an important post:

first off, Marth, this decision was sitting around for months with no resolution. November-March is certainly not a period of 2-4 days. This had been debated on and off forever. Keeping the chart caused mroe problems than deleting it. Nobody but you followed to newly placed rule, there was no way to prove high times perfectly, there was no resolution on the method used to record your time. Basically, this was an extremely controversial chart.

Second, hot shelter gamma is not an important chart in SADX. Removing it does not kill sa1's essence. This isn't like removing EC-S. HS-G was relatively unimportant int he scheme of things.

Third, even F-MAN, champion of SADX, voted that removing the chart was a valid option. If someone who likes sa1 that much voted to remove the stage, we can be assured that it really wasn't providing that much to TSC. The chart didn't provide much competition. Hitting a switch for 45 minutes isn't exactly the world's most involved and competitive thing. i don't really want to spend 40 minutes for a failed attempt at the boss. The stage may have had plenty of room for error and thus room to be better than another, it still really didn't provide much outside those willing to be really patient.

Removing the stage was the best choice, IMO.

1. First, a rule was set up, and I didn't approve of it. But there was still a chart. Then, after it had been sitting around for a while, THREE people suddenly decided, with too little discussion (and in less than 4 days), to remove it entirely. The dumb rule is the main reason it was so broken, anyway. It was fine before the rule.

2. It's a time chart. It's important enough. Also, with Cyberscore's new ring and score charts, TSC had better make sure it's better. But obviously, it's not trying too hard. As I recall, there are a few CS-haters here... maybe some of them are even responsible for deleting the chart.

3. And what am I? I'm already a bit jealous from being overshadowed by F-Man,
but this is too much! You act like I'm not at all important, that I'm no good at the game,
that I don't know enough, and that I don't think it's the best game ever made. I'm just as much
of a Sonic Adventure fan as F-Man, and even if he managed to pull ahead on a lot of charts,
I've still held the records at one time or another, and I've discovered a lot of major glitches.
So there's my proof of "authority" and a valid opinion.
If the stage is so terrible, then we can discuss rules that would make it not broken.
But the best way for now is to just leave it with no extra rules, until something is worked out.
It really sounds as if you just personally dislike the stage. (There are a lot of stages, and even
whole divisions, that I dislike and/or am bad at. Am I asking for them to be removed?)

[F-Man]

You know Marth, I've learned over time that arguing with you is useless. Of course I'm mainly thinking about all the times it happened aimlessly in the chat, but I guess I could also link to this evidence.

I didn't want the chart removed either but since people couldn't deal with it, it just had to be done. I was the first one to throw the idea in the chat after an extensive debate, because it's simply the fairest way to deal with this without having to resort to lametastic rules. I guess we just have to accept the stage was too broken for this site's qualifications.

[Stefan]

Logged in quickly for an important post:


1. First, a rule was set up, and I didn't approve of it. But there was still a chart. Then, after it had been sitting around for a while, THREE people suddenly decided, with too little discussion (and in less than 4 days), to remove it entirely. The dumb rule is the main reason it was so broken, anyway. It was fine before the rule.

2. It's a time chart. It's important enough. Also, with Cyberscore's new ring and score charts, TSC had better make sure it's better. But obviously, it's not trying too hard. As I recall, there are a few CS-haters here... maybe some of them are even responsible for deleting the chart.

3. And what am I? I'm already a bit jealous from being overshadowed by F-Man,
but this is too much! You act like I'm not at all important, that I'm no good at the game,
that I don't know enough, and that I don't think it's the best game ever made. I'm just as much
of a Sonic Adventure fan as F-Man, and even if he managed to pull ahead on a lot of charts,
I've still held the records at one time or another, and I've discovered a lot of major glitches.
So there's my proof of "authority" and a valid opinion.
If the stage is so terrible, then we can discuss rules that would make it not broken.
But the best way for now is to just leave it with no extra rules, until something is worked out.
It really sounds as if you just personally dislike the stage. (There are a lot of stages, and even
whole divisions, that I dislike and/or am bad at. Am I asking for them to be removed?)

Oh come on. :( This chart was deleted in less than four days. F-Man first suggested it after tsc's downtime IIRC.  The chart had stayed up long after that anyway. It may be a time chart, but it is a time chart with major flaws. There is no fun in making sure you didn't hit a single switch tiwce and there is little fun in 45 minutes of switch pounding.

I'm not calling you insignificant, I'm not calling you bad, I'm not calling you unimportant. I'm telling you that there are also SA1 LOVERS who thought getting rid of the chart was the best choice. No, I was not bcalling you bad. You took that too far. I'm telling you that evenpeople who are likely biased in favor of the game suggested taking the chart off. The idea was well supported for the most part.

Here's the thing Marth: We have been discussing rules to make the stage not borken, in the forum and in chat, for a very long time. And what came up? Nothing. Every rule is broken. There were flaws with each one.The stage really did provide more trouble than it needed.

I also hope, pretty dearly, that you don't believe TSC will ever be inferior to cyberscore. Please don't tell me you were hinting at that. TSC has been premier sonic competition site before cyberscore existed. It has many more good players with better records and better understanding of the games. Cyberscore will never overshadow TSC, especially not because it tracks a single stage that we don't.

I don't personally dislike the stage. I was not the one who pushed the baleet button. Don't try turning this into a "Stefan hates HS-G so he bombed it". I don't have thae authority for that.

I was attempting to give you the rationale for deleting the stage. It seems, anyway, that when you feel about something, all logic aside you will win. Bringing your emotions into this was definitely not convincing to me. I still believe deleting the atage was the best choice, and a majority seems to share the same opinion as I do.

[Marth]

You know Marth, I've learned over time that arguing with you is useless. Of course I'm mainly thinking about all the times it happened aimlessly in the chat, but I guess I could also link to this evidence.

I didn't want the chart removed either but since people couldn't deal with it, it just had to be done. I was the first one to throw the idea in the chat after an extensive debate, because it's simply the fairest way to deal with this without having to resort to lametastic rules. I guess we just have to accept the stage was too broken for this site's qualifications.

You know why arguing with me is pointless? Because I make sure I know what I'm talking about.
(In the Sonic Channel vs. Sonic Adventure argument, I knew SA and SC didn't match up.
In the "is the stage clear or not?" argument, I knew it would be silly and inconsistent to disallow the times.)
I don't switch my opinion around whenever someone disagrees with me, or when the majority
of people involved in the discussion turns against me. Call me stubborn, but at least I'm consistent.
And that's no reason to ignore everything I say. If I say something, there's a reason.
Also, if I have to be stubborn, there must be someone else who's stubborn and won't agree with me.
Finally, doon't drag other stuff in here. It can be used for my side, if for anything.

About a solution, if the "three consecutive hits" rule and any other possibilities are all "lametastic",
then just get rid of the rules, as you said in an earlier post here. Allow 90+ and 100+ or whatever one can get.

I'm not calling you insignificant, I'm not calling you bad, I'm not calling you unimportant. I'm telling you that there are also SA1 LOVERS who thought getting rid of the chart was the best choice. No, I was not bcalling you bad. You took that too far. I'm telling you that evenpeople who are likely biased in favor of the game suggested taking the chart off. The idea was well supported for the most part.

Here's the thing Marth: We have been discussing rules to make the stage not borken, in the forum and in chat, for a very long time. And what came up? Nothing. Every rule is broken. There were flaws with each one.The stage really did provide more trouble than it needed.

I also hope, pretty dearly, that you don't believe TSC will ever be inferior to cyberscore. Please don't tell me you were hinting at that. TSC has been premier sonic competition site before cyberscore existed. It has many more good players with better records and better understanding of the games. Cyberscore will never overshadow TSC, especially not because it tracks a single stage that we don't.

I don't personally dislike the stage. I was not the one who pushed the baleet button. Don't try turning this into a "Stefan hates HS-G so he bombed it". I don't have thae authority for that.

I was attempting to give you the rationale for deleting the stage. It seems, anyway, that when you feel about something, all logic aside you will win. Bringing your emotions into this was definitely not convincing to me. I still believe deleting the atage was the best choice, and a majority seems to share the same opinion as I do.

1. I interpreted your message as, "Look, the wonderful, almighty F-MAN, of all people,
agreed to delete the chart!!! What he says is what goes! He's so great! He loves SA soooo much!"
Maybe I took it the wrong way, but you have to admit that you not only put his name in capitals
and called him the champion and an SA lover, but you also didn't mention me at all.
That gave the impression that you thought that he's important, and that I'm not.

2. There wasn't all that much discussion. Just uncertainty, some hasty rule changes,
and possibly a whole lot of discussion behind my back. But it didn't seem like anything was being done.
If a rule can't be thought up, just forget the rules. It was fine without them.

3. I don't know. I prefer TSC in many ways, but removing a perfectly fine chart severely damages
the completeness of the only game I really care about. So now, I have to depend on CS for that stage.
CS is complete. TSC is not. And what if more stages get broken? Or rather, what if the "3 authorities"
decide that other stages are broken? "That shortcut skips the entire level. It's no fun. DELETE THE CHART!!!!"

4. The stage is important enough. You and other people just seem to hate it.

5. Emotions? Who's bringing in emotions? Dislike for a stage- that's emotion. (Liking a stage?
Probably emotion as well. But this whole site is emotion, since we all love Sonic games. Delete it all!!!)
I don't appreciate it when I'm accused of using emotions, speculation, etc., for an argument.
Because it's not true. As I said earlier in this post, if I'm stubborn, it's because I don't change
sides easily, since I have no reason to. The fact is that we're incomplete as a result of missing a chart.
And for my feeling (which counts as much as anyone's), I think the chart should've stayed.
Until SadisticMystic started complaining about version differences and proof and garbage,
it didn't seem like there was any trouble. But it got brought up every now and then because it was so "terrible".
And again, I don't go by general opinion. Facts>opinion. Opinion=opinion.

[Bilan]

I have an idea.

Give it a fucking freestyle chart where you can do what you damn well like with it and shut everyone up.

This argument is entirely pointless.