[SadisticMystic]

Ever since the beginning of the site, it's been known that the switches in E-102 Hot Shelter give +1 second, and you can hit them as many times as you want.  This was used to give several times in the 99-minute range, and everything went along smoothly.

Then Marth discovered a way to break through the walls of the boss room after time has been stopped entering that room, but before you touch down and actually trigger the boss fight.  It only worked on GameCube, though, allowing those players to get a few seconds higher.  Again, no uproar was raised about this.

On February 20 of this year, I noticed a problem with this level.  On Dreamcast, you can't stop the clock to freely build up time, but the timer isn't capped to 99 minutes either.  Minutes is a signed variable for some reason (like most of SA seems to be), so you can build the timer up to a maximum of 127:59.  That's a version difference of 28 minutes.

The big problem: Nowhere does that time get displayed in full.  I used the higher timer cap to obtain a time of 118:14.11, but the in-game screen displayed 99:59.99, the level complete screen displayed 99:14.11, and the level select screen shows 18:14.11.  There's nothing that can be used to display the full 118 minutes.  Furthermore, it would require a TSC coding change in order to enter times of 100 minutes or more.

I briefly brought up this problem, but it was ignored.  Now there's been plenty more playing around in E-102 Hot Shelter, and the discussion has come back.  Should times up to the 127-minute range be allowed, even though there would be no way to prove such a time?  Psyknux took advantage of the increased timer cap and used it to get something that does display properly, 99:58.54, but other than the final times, 99:58 and 118:14 are done in the same way.  Should that 99:58.54 be submittable?  Should the legality be determined not by the tactics used, but the way the game displays your time?  If you used the trick to get, say, 100:15, it would display on the level select screen as 00:15.  But the presence of an A emblem would make it clear that your best time couldn't possibly be just 15 seconds.  For Hot Shelter, could this be used to raise the limit for unambiguously identifiable times on Dreamcast to just under 102 minutes?

Does the whole scalping-switches-for-unlimited-time deal in Hot Shelter need to be itself examined (possibly thrown into a Freestyle division)?

Discuss your ideas here.


-----
RULING 11-14-2006 by Rolken

New rule: As Gamma, no switch may be shot more than once.

Times above 100min are only visible from the select screen and then only without the leading 1, rendering times impossible to prove and even more broken to compete in since you can't determine your time in-level.

Accordingly, all times above 90min have been suspended.

[Auriman1]

That technique does seem like something which should fall under the freestyle division.

[X-5]

I think it's a stupid way to time attack a level to be quite honest(anyone can hit the B button for an hour to hope to get lucky at the boss)

As magnum12 said, it takes the fun out of doing the stage properly, a freestyle divison or just banning it I think would be best off.

and I never noticed until now, but I have the best non-switch abuse time!

[Groudon]

In a way, it isn't as fun as TAing without switch abuse, but if this gets a ban or freestyle, anything that doesn't seem as fun as normal TAing could get the same things. *points to 3 Shadow missions and magnum's comment on this one* If anyone can do what ParaGod said, anyone can use the trick used for the Shadow times.

* Groudon run

[Crowbar]

I think it's not so much about sapping the fun out of things as just plain breaking the level.

[X-5]

I don't know anything about Shadow sadly so I can't compare.

But think about it, your not allowed to abuse bells and slots for ring/score attacks, why should you be able to abuse a switch for time attacks? I assume they banned the ring abuse trick because it would lead to everyone having 999 rings which is boring, this is basically the same thing where everyone has 99 minutes and the seconds are only different because they got bad luck/or have bad aim during the boss fight, which doesn't prove anything about how good they are at the level itself.

[Groudon]

There are actually other tricks in SA(DX) that involve glitches like this that involve breaking the level, like Icecap.  A glitch is used to stop the timer, since the game would be waiting for the avalance sequence to begin.  After a long free-fall, you can run on the snowboarding part at your own pace and break the capsule with the time displayed when the time stopped (the best example of this is effy's vid).  Banning this trick just because of it's level-breaking effects would probably do the same for everything else that involves some type of glitch as a huge shortcut (Casinopolis and Lost World, just to name a few)

edit: This was in response to Crowbar.

Also, everyone would have thousands of rings, when you think about it.  The in-game count displays up to 999, but the total shown at the end goes even higher.

[magnum12]

I'm in favor of moving the switch scalping trick to free style. To be fair to the DC version (i.e. make it so its not at a 90+ minute disadvantage), I'm also in favor of moving the Hot Shelter time freeze glitch on the GC version to free style. I'll have to move my time since I did one cycle of the trick on my time (GC version). Oh well, I had a pretty strong time (4:30+ I think) without the glitch.
Edit: Slightly off topic, but I think I also had a sub 1:00 run for Lethal Highway (Hero) without that glitch.

[Marth]

I'm in favor of moving the switch scalping trick to free style. To be fair to the DC version (i.e. make it so its not at a 90+ minute disadvantage), I'm also in favor of moving the Hot Shelter time freeze glitch on the GC version to free style. I'll have to move my time since I did one cycle of the trick on my time (GC version). Oh well, I had a pretty strong time (4:30+ I think) without the glitch.
Edit: Slightly off topic, but I think I also had a sub 1:00 run for Lethal Highway (Hero) without that glitch.

Um... freezing time gives more like a 10 or 15 minute advantage.
There's a limited number of checkpoints.

Anyway, the 100-minute trick could be moved to Freestyle, but what else would go there?
I say we should keep the time-freeze glitch, as it's not cheap, other than that it gives GC an advantage.
If it goes to Freestyle, it should get a separate chart from the 100-minute trick.
(Otherwise, there'd be no use for the time freeze.)

[Bilan]

Not like it would matter if it was freestyled.

[X-5]

The time freeze glitch is ok, as it doesn'tcompletely kill the level and actually it takes more skill and more strategy to find the best way to get the most time you can from using the checkpoints, and not screwing up over a greater period of time.But the switch, as said is stupid, anyone can get a 99 minute time with it.

[yse]

As I understand it the way we decide whether something is used for time attack is if there is, after using whatever trick, still competition potential. This is why 8"25 m2s on SA2B are banned completely, for example, while DD languishes in freestyle.

Now I have two points to address, a time stop and a infinite time-scalp technique.

Time stop: Time stops have always been allowed in time attacks (Cannon's Core, Sand Ocean, Launch Base 2). No issue here. I might try it out soon though, I've never actually seen what this glitch does.

Infinite time-scalp: Even if you can get up to 99 (or 127) minutes, there is obviously still competition potential, as you can see by looking at the chart. Therefore a straight ban is not the answer.

The only reason I would consider banning this technique is because of the issues with the DC timing method. Even then, that's a game storage limitation and shouldn't impact rankings (see Final Egg rings for example). Note that the Marble Garden 1 ring ruling doesn't apply here because at some stage you do see the full time of 127 minutes.

Additionally, we can't ban things on a subjective basis ("this isn't fun to TA") because put simply, TAing is somewhat intended to be a frustrating exercise. This also leads me to suggest that it probably shouldn't be put in freestyle either (I don't particularly like the freestyle concept, but that's another story for another day).

Anyway, tracking for HS times is left with five options: (maxes under each regime in brackets)

1. Anything goes (GC 99min, DC 127min)
2. DC times should be recognisable from screenshot (GC 99, DC <102)
3. Neither version should be at a disadvantage (99)
4. No time scalping, time freeze allowed (GC 15?, DC 5?)
5. Time scalping and time freeze disallowed/moved to Freestyle (5)

Per my above statements, 5 is out of the question as time freeze is allowed by precedent.

Anybody who would prefer the disallowing of time scalping would therefore be in support of 4, which means they can't use the version disadvantage argument because GC has a huge one under that rule.
Pros: No more using two hours just to get near the top of one chart
Cons: Large (read: can't be caught up) version advantage to GC, revamp of charts, relies on subjective analysis of methods

Method 3, which appears to be the version we work under now, seems to work okay in practice but has a major flaw, which Psyknux recently exploited. If we simply limit the time that can be submitted to 100 minutes, then a player can go over 100 minutes and wait until 99'59"99 and throw the final shot at the boss. The only way to counterbalance this would be to suggest a "you can't at any stage go over 100 minutes in the level" rule... and congratulations, you've just created the most unworkable rule in the history of TSC. Change is needed.
Pros: Current system, has worked for three years, no real version difference
Cons: Abusable on DC, unworkable rule

Method 2 is similar enough to method 3 but additionally recognises that the version difference exists, while also ensuring that the time can later be proven. However, it's just as unworkable as the previous rule, as well as giving a version difference and is just plain silly.
Pros: Similar to current method, allows DC's additional method and can still be proven later on
Cons: Unworkable rule, version difference, not particularly intuitive

My preferred method is method 1. The only issues with it are proof and the character-breaking version difference. Proof is easy enough to organise, but the version difference is another matter. I think it's silly to impose a limit on DC for the sake of the GC players though.
Pros: Consistent with TSC's "if the game lets you do it, it's allowed" philosophy
Cons: Proof issues, unbeatable version difference (lucky Gamma doesn't count towards the total!)

So yeah. Debate over.

[Rolken]

Version fairness isn't an issue; there's plenty of runs that make use of tricks only available on one version. 1 and 4 seem the only viable options to me.

[F-Man]

...

[F-Man]

1. The new rule has nothing to do with the real issue being the Dreamcast version not telling your time correctly.

2. People had been hitting switches more than once since the very beginning, and that wasn't banned until SM tried on Dreamcast. It makes no sense to ban it for both versions now when it wasn't banned in DX before.

3. The decision was decided way too quickly.

Best thing to do would probably be to accept 27:59 as 127:59 on the level select screen, because, it is. (Please tell me if it would actually show 17:59, cause that'd be a slight problem.)

In any case, fu.

[SadisticMystic]

A time of 127:45 would show as 27:45 (omitting 1), not 17:45 (1 replacing the 10-minute digit).  I discovered the increased timer cap while using E-102 in Casinopolis.  After filling the vault, the switch counts as 2 lock-ons for some reason, so you fill up 3 times as fast, meaning I don't have to shoot for as long.  I used it to get 100:46, and since that time is saved to Red Mountain, I now see a Red Mountain record of 00:46.

This ruling seems to be based on the precedent of not letting you do things that provide no limit to the amount of a resource you can get, other than the game not responding to additional resources beyond a certain limit (usually a string of 9s or a byte cap).  It's this reason that Casinopolis Sonic rings and score aren't tracked at all, for instance.  Things like the respawning blue rocks in Hill Top evade this ruling because the time needed for each cycle combined with the hard 10-minute limit means the actual score you can get has a limit far below the maximum the game stores, and even below what's available on a "standard" score run path.  Yes, it's been done the old way for 3 years, but cracking down on an unlimited repeatable procedure is understandable.  There have been grudges about the switch-scalping method scattered throughout the site's history.

This level could be seen a bit differently from the case of "going infinite," as the resources you build up are depleted at some point, even if (in one version) that's only for a few seconds at the boss fight.  The fact that you have some control over how many of those seconds get depleted could bring up mike's "is there still something to compete over?" test.  In this case, there is, even if it makes for the dullest "competition" anywhere on the site, possibly rivaled only by reentering Knuckles stages until you get the right layout.

A two-screenshot method of showing the time here, with level complete (99:14.11) combined with level select (18:14.11), could be workable for Dreamcast, even though it doesn't technically prove that the two stats shown are from the same run (but the odds of different runs are 1-in-3600).

One thought: Does the train ride cutscene make all items and enemies reappear, as with entering the castle multiple times in Amy's Twinkle Park?  If so, does that continue to hold true even when the train ride is completed immediately by virtue of having already done it?  This could mean that GameCube players would still have the potential to "go infinite" in this case.

In conclusion, Sonic Team needs a good whipping with a stick.

[F-Man]

One thought: Does the train ride cutscene make all items and enemies reappear, as with entering the castle multiple times in Amy's Twinkle Park?  If so, does that continue to hold true even when the train ride is completed immediately by virtue of having already done it?  This could mean that GameCube players would still have the potential to "go infinite" in this case.

Nah, they don't respawn.

Also, I just spent two hours trying to TA the stage according to the new rule (far longer than it would've take me the older way). I decided to give up as this was way too hard, I died all the time trying to aim the most enemies possible at different places.

Of course, that's just my own sucking, so here is a real reason why the rule ultimately fails: not shooting a switch more than once is the hardest thing you could ask us to do in time attacking this game. In all my attempt, I shot a certain switch more than once accidently, but tried to keep going just to see what time I would get (and failed).

And that was just in the first two times I was going around the level. Going from memory, there are approximately 9 checkpoints in the stage. Those familiar with Gamma time attacking know that you should restart after killing every enemy for each checkpoint, meaning you have to go around the level about ten times.

I'm sorry, but there is no way I'm ever going to try doing this without shooting a switch more than once, and I am sure most times, and probably all who used the checkpoints, have shot at least one switches more than once.

Here are the different ways it has accidently happened to me:

1. Second switch, shot while breaking the wall before it.
2. Third switch, shot almost every time because it is inside a block you need to blow up. Not shooting that switch is a real challenge in itself.
3. Fourth switch, shot at the same time I was shotting the dozen of Kikis around it.

Just shooting each of them once while going around the level once is easy, but trying not to do it again in the 30 minutes or so you TA the stage, and 10 times you go around it, is downright impossible. That, or you need to be a) a real expert, way better than me, with infinite patience, or b) pay extreme attention at the 2nd or 3rd switch, and not shoot Kikis to close to the 4th one, but what kind of newbie would do all that? Heck, even the idea of me trying that, after passing 2 hours testing the stage not caring if I accidently shot a switch twice repulses me.

I'll say it again, the decision was taken way too quickly, without enough input and especially testing. And also, out of all the decisions we could do, this was the worst one in my opinion.

[Groudon]

I'm pretty sure there's a little leeway in the rule, like you can shoot a switch more than once, as long as you don't overdo it.  In my 9:06 run, I shot the 3rd switch a couple times, since the crane didn't pick Gamma up right away.  But I didn't shoot it like 5,000 times or anything.

[F-Man]

I'm pretty sure there's a little leeway in the rule, like you can shoot a switch more than once, as long as you don't overdo it.  In my 9:06 run, I shot the 3rd switch a couple times, since the crane didn't pick Gamma up right away.  But I didn't shoot it like 5,000 times or anything.

I rest my case.

[X-5]

About all this checkpoint abuse stuff, I don't remember EXACTLY how I got my 9:25 but I do recall going through the stage once, doing the time stop glitch and killing everything again and then killing the boss. I thought this was how you got 99 minutes(at the time I didn't know shooting the switch gave 1 second, and I thought you got 99 minutes by doing the glitch over and over)
Maybe it's possible to abuse more checkpoints for more time which would get old, I forget how the stage works nowadays because I only ever tried for like 10 minutes once I learned about the time stop glitch.

I don't even think the switches besides the lift thing give any time, but I could be wrong-  but if i'm not then it obviously wouldn't hurt a damn thing to shoot it again.


But now that I think about it, maybe just a legit playthrough with no time stop would have been the best choice?

[F-Man]

About all this checkpoint abuse stuff, I don't remember EXACTLY how I got my 9:25 but I do recall going through the stage once, doing the time stop glitch and killing everything again and then killing the boss. I thought this was how you got 99 minutes(at the time I didn't know shooting the switch gave 1 second, and I thought you got 99 minutes by doing the glitch over and over)
Maybe it's possible to abuse more checkpoints for more time which would get old, I forget how the stage works nowadays because I only ever tried for like 10 minutes once I learned about the time stop glitch.

I don't even think the switches besides the lift thing give any time, but I could be wrong-  but if i'm not then it obviously wouldn't hurt a damn thing to shoot it again.


But now that I think about it, maybe just a legit playthrough with no time stop would have been the best choice?

And allow multiple switch shooting then? This won't fix the problem at hand, but I still have to agree it'd be better than the travesty that was decided by Rolken and mike.

[Groudon]

About all this checkpoint abuse stuff, I don't remember EXACTLY how I got my 9:25 but I do recall going through the stage once, doing the time stop glitch and killing everything again and then killing the boss.

In my 9:06 run, I did something similar to that.  I abused checkpoints quite a bit, but the last checkpoint was the biggest one.  Activating that one then restarting from there resets everything in the level, making 9:00 possible (among other checkpoints abused).

I don't even think the switches besides the lift thing give any time, but I could be wrong-  but if i'm not then it obviously wouldn't hurt a damn thing to shoot it again.

All switches give an extra second when shot, regardless of where it's located or what level it's on.

But now that I think about it, maybe just a legit playthrough with no time stop would have been the best choice?

Even then, it would still give results similar to what a timestop would provide, due to the switch shooting.  It would be easier for 99:50 and up on DC, since DC players can't stop time there anyway.  So they improvise.  And the fact that the timer doesn't stop increasing when it hits 99:59 on DC.

[X-5]

I guess everyone misunderstood what I said, I never said the switch abuse should be allowed, just a suggestion of removing the timestop glitch as well, so the level would basically be played like any other Gamma level.

[Groudon]

Yes, but like I said, it wouldn't make too much of a difference besides the fact that the top times on GC could be a little over 98:xx.xx, whereas the DC times can reach 99:30 and up, since there's no timestop glitch for them anyway and the time accumulates past 99:59.

[F-Man]

I guess everyone misunderstood what I said, I never said the switch abuse should be allowed, just a suggestion of removing the timestop glitch as well, so the level would basically be played like any other Gamma level.

That doesn't fix the issue of switches being way too easy to shoot more than once. And you'd just be adding another unnecessary rule.

(By the way, Groudon, I have no idea where you got the idea you could get high times such as these without switch abuse)

[Groudon]

Effy, even I don't have any idea as to exactly what I did.  I abused several checkpoints, but perhaps locking-on to as many of the enemies on the train ride in one area could give you an edge.  Unfortunately, I didn't record what I did, so I can't explain the method as accurate as I would if I vidded it (and if I did, I'd have surely shown you it).  If I get higher, I'll upload footage.

[F-Man]

...I was talking about that post:

Yes, but like I said, it wouldn't make too much of a difference besides the fact that the top times on GC could be a little over 98:xx.xx, whereas the DC times can reach 99:30 and up, since there's no timestop glitch for them anyway and the time accumulates past 99:59.

You're saying you actually got 98:xx.xx without switch abuse?

[Groudon]

When I said that, I was responding to Paragod to saying he thinks the switch abuse would be allowed, but not the timestop.

[F-Man]

I guess everyone misunderstood what I said, I never said the switch abuse should be allowed

I guess everyone misunderstood what I said, I never said the switch abuse should be allowed

I guess everyone misunderstood what I said, I never said the switch abuse should be allowed

[Groudon]

just a suggestion of removing the timestop glitch as well

just a suggestion of removing the timestop glitch as well

just a suggestion of removing the timestop glitch as well

* Groudon run