Sonic Central > Rules Revisions
E-102 Hot Shelter and dumbness [Resolved...again]
Marth:
Logged in quickly for an important post:
--- Quote from: Stefan on March 05, 2007, 06:37:59 pm ---first off, Marth, this decision was sitting around for months with no resolution. November-March is certainly not a period of 2-4 days. This had been debated on and off forever. Keeping the chart caused mroe problems than deleting it. Nobody but you followed to newly placed rule, there was no way to prove high times perfectly, there was no resolution on the method used to record your time. Basically, this was an extremely controversial chart.
Second, hot shelter gamma is not an important chart in SADX. Removing it does not kill sa1's essence. This isn't like removing EC-S. HS-G was relatively unimportant int he scheme of things.
Third, even F-MAN, champion of SADX, voted that removing the chart was a valid option. If someone who likes sa1 that much voted to remove the stage, we can be assured that it really wasn't providing that much to TSC. The chart didn't provide much competition. Hitting a switch for 45 minutes isn't exactly the world's most involved and competitive thing. i don't really want to spend 40 minutes for a failed attempt at the boss. The stage may have had plenty of room for error and thus room to be better than another, it still really didn't provide much outside those willing to be really patient.
Removing the stage was the best choice, IMO.
--- End quote ---
1. First, a rule was set up, and I didn't approve of it. But there was still a chart. Then, after it had been sitting around for a while, THREE people suddenly decided, with too little discussion (and in less than 4 days), to remove it entirely. The dumb rule is the main reason it was so broken, anyway. It was fine before the rule.
2. It's a time chart. It's important enough. Also, with Cyberscore's new ring and score charts, TSC had better make sure it's better. But obviously, it's not trying too hard. As I recall, there are a few CS-haters here... maybe some of them are even responsible for deleting the chart.
3. And what am I? I'm already a bit jealous from being overshadowed by F-Man,
but this is too much! You act like I'm not at all important, that I'm no good at the game,
that I don't know enough, and that I don't think it's the best game ever made. I'm just as much
of a Sonic Adventure fan as F-Man, and even if he managed to pull ahead on a lot of charts,
I've still held the records at one time or another, and I've discovered a lot of major glitches.
So there's my proof of "authority" and a valid opinion.
If the stage is so terrible, then we can discuss rules that would make it not broken.
But the best way for now is to just leave it with no extra rules, until something is worked out.
It really sounds as if you just personally dislike the stage. (There are a lot of stages, and even
whole divisions, that I dislike and/or am bad at. Am I asking for them to be removed?)
F-Man:
You know Marth, I've learned over time that arguing with you is useless. Of course I'm mainly thinking about all the times it happened aimlessly in the chat, but I guess I could also link to this evidence.
I didn't want the chart removed either but since people couldn't deal with it, it just had to be done. I was the first one to throw the idea in the chat after an extensive debate, because it's simply the fairest way to deal with this without having to resort to lametastic rules. I guess we just have to accept the stage was too broken for this site's qualifications.
Stefan:
--- Quote from: Marth on March 05, 2007, 10:44:27 pm ---Logged in quickly for an important post:
1. First, a rule was set up, and I didn't approve of it. But there was still a chart. Then, after it had been sitting around for a while, THREE people suddenly decided, with too little discussion (and in less than 4 days), to remove it entirely. The dumb rule is the main reason it was so broken, anyway. It was fine before the rule.
2. It's a time chart. It's important enough. Also, with Cyberscore's new ring and score charts, TSC had better make sure it's better. But obviously, it's not trying too hard. As I recall, there are a few CS-haters here... maybe some of them are even responsible for deleting the chart.
3. And what am I? I'm already a bit jealous from being overshadowed by F-Man,
but this is too much! You act like I'm not at all important, that I'm no good at the game,
that I don't know enough, and that I don't think it's the best game ever made. I'm just as much
of a Sonic Adventure fan as F-Man, and even if he managed to pull ahead on a lot of charts,
I've still held the records at one time or another, and I've discovered a lot of major glitches.
So there's my proof of "authority" and a valid opinion.
If the stage is so terrible, then we can discuss rules that would make it not broken.
But the best way for now is to just leave it with no extra rules, until something is worked out.
It really sounds as if you just personally dislike the stage. (There are a lot of stages, and even
whole divisions, that I dislike and/or am bad at. Am I asking for them to be removed?)
--- End quote ---
Oh come on. :( This chart was deleted in less than four days. F-Man first suggested it after tsc's downtime IIRC. The chart had stayed up long after that anyway. It may be a time chart, but it is a time chart with major flaws. There is no fun in making sure you didn't hit a single switch tiwce and there is little fun in 45 minutes of switch pounding.
I'm not calling you insignificant, I'm not calling you bad, I'm not calling you unimportant. I'm telling you that there are also SA1 LOVERS who thought getting rid of the chart was the best choice. No, I was not bcalling you bad. You took that too far. I'm telling you that evenpeople who are likely biased in favor of the game suggested taking the chart off. The idea was well supported for the most part.
Here's the thing Marth: We have been discussing rules to make the stage not borken, in the forum and in chat, for a very long time. And what came up? Nothing. Every rule is broken. There were flaws with each one.The stage really did provide more trouble than it needed.
I also hope, pretty dearly, that you don't believe TSC will ever be inferior to cyberscore. Please don't tell me you were hinting at that. TSC has been premier sonic competition site before cyberscore existed. It has many more good players with better records and better understanding of the games. Cyberscore will never overshadow TSC, especially not because it tracks a single stage that we don't.
I don't personally dislike the stage. I was not the one who pushed the baleet button. Don't try turning this into a "Stefan hates HS-G so he bombed it". I don't have thae authority for that.
I was attempting to give you the rationale for deleting the stage. It seems, anyway, that when you feel about something, all logic aside you will win. Bringing your emotions into this was definitely not convincing to me. I still believe deleting the atage was the best choice, and a majority seems to share the same opinion as I do.
Marth:
--- Quote from: F-Man on March 05, 2007, 10:55:32 pm ---You know Marth, I've learned over time that arguing with you is useless. Of course I'm mainly thinking about all the times it happened aimlessly in the chat, but I guess I could also link to this evidence.
I didn't want the chart removed either but since people couldn't deal with it, it just had to be done. I was the first one to throw the idea in the chat after an extensive debate, because it's simply the fairest way to deal with this without having to resort to lametastic rules. I guess we just have to accept the stage was too broken for this site's qualifications.
--- End quote ---
You know why arguing with me is pointless? Because I make sure I know what I'm talking about.
(In the Sonic Channel vs. Sonic Adventure argument, I knew SA and SC didn't match up.
In the "is the stage clear or not?" argument, I knew it would be silly and inconsistent to disallow the times.)
I don't switch my opinion around whenever someone disagrees with me, or when the majority
of people involved in the discussion turns against me. Call me stubborn, but at least I'm consistent.
And that's no reason to ignore everything I say. If I say something, there's a reason.
Also, if I have to be stubborn, there must be someone else who's stubborn and won't agree with me.
Finally, doon't drag other stuff in here. It can be used for my side, if for anything.
About a solution, if the "three consecutive hits" rule and any other possibilities are all "lametastic",
then just get rid of the rules, as you said in an earlier post here. Allow 90+ and 100+ or whatever one can get.
--- Quote from: Stefan ---I'm not calling you insignificant, I'm not calling you bad, I'm not calling you unimportant. I'm telling you that there are also SA1 LOVERS who thought getting rid of the chart was the best choice. No, I was not bcalling you bad. You took that too far. I'm telling you that evenpeople who are likely biased in favor of the game suggested taking the chart off. The idea was well supported for the most part.
Here's the thing Marth: We have been discussing rules to make the stage not borken, in the forum and in chat, for a very long time. And what came up? Nothing. Every rule is broken. There were flaws with each one.The stage really did provide more trouble than it needed.
I also hope, pretty dearly, that you don't believe TSC will ever be inferior to cyberscore. Please don't tell me you were hinting at that. TSC has been premier sonic competition site before cyberscore existed. It has many more good players with better records and better understanding of the games. Cyberscore will never overshadow TSC, especially not because it tracks a single stage that we don't.
I don't personally dislike the stage. I was not the one who pushed the baleet button. Don't try turning this into a "Stefan hates HS-G so he bombed it". I don't have thae authority for that.
I was attempting to give you the rationale for deleting the stage. It seems, anyway, that when you feel about something, all logic aside you will win. Bringing your emotions into this was definitely not convincing to me. I still believe deleting the atage was the best choice, and a majority seems to share the same opinion as I do.
--- End quote ---
1. I interpreted your message as, "Look, the wonderful, almighty F-MAN, of all people,
agreed to delete the chart!!! What he says is what goes! He's so great! He loves SA soooo much!"
Maybe I took it the wrong way, but you have to admit that you not only put his name in capitals
and called him the champion and an SA lover, but you also didn't mention me at all.
That gave the impression that you thought that he's important, and that I'm not.
2. There wasn't all that much discussion. Just uncertainty, some hasty rule changes,
and possibly a whole lot of discussion behind my back. But it didn't seem like anything was being done.
If a rule can't be thought up, just forget the rules. It was fine without them.
3. I don't know. I prefer TSC in many ways, but removing a perfectly fine chart severely damages
the completeness of the only game I really care about. So now, I have to depend on CS for that stage.
CS is complete. TSC is not. And what if more stages get broken? Or rather, what if the "3 authorities"
decide that other stages are broken? "That shortcut skips the entire level. It's no fun. DELETE THE CHART!!!!"
4. The stage is important enough. You and other people just seem to hate it.
5. Emotions? Who's bringing in emotions? Dislike for a stage- that's emotion. (Liking a stage?
Probably emotion as well. But this whole site is emotion, since we all love Sonic games. Delete it all!!!)
I don't appreciate it when I'm accused of using emotions, speculation, etc., for an argument.
Because it's not true. As I said earlier in this post, if I'm stubborn, it's because I don't change
sides easily, since I have no reason to. The fact is that we're incomplete as a result of missing a chart.
And for my feeling (which counts as much as anyone's), I think the chart should've stayed.
Until SadisticMystic started complaining about version differences and proof and garbage,
it didn't seem like there was any trouble. But it got brought up every now and then because it was so "terrible".
And again, I don't go by general opinion. Facts>opinion. Opinion=opinion.
Bilan:
I have an idea.
Give it a fucking freestyle chart where you can do what you damn well like with it and shut everyone up.
This argument is entirely pointless.
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