Sonic Central > Rules Revisions
E-102 Hot Shelter and dumbness [Resolved...again]
SadisticMystic:
A time of 127:45 would show as 27:45 (omitting 1), not 17:45 (1 replacing the 10-minute digit). I discovered the increased timer cap while using E-102 in Casinopolis. After filling the vault, the switch counts as 2 lock-ons for some reason, so you fill up 3 times as fast, meaning I don't have to shoot for as long. I used it to get 100:46, and since that time is saved to Red Mountain, I now see a Red Mountain record of 00:46.
This ruling seems to be based on the precedent of not letting you do things that provide no limit to the amount of a resource you can get, other than the game not responding to additional resources beyond a certain limit (usually a string of 9s or a byte cap). It's this reason that Casinopolis Sonic rings and score aren't tracked at all, for instance. Things like the respawning blue rocks in Hill Top evade this ruling because the time needed for each cycle combined with the hard 10-minute limit means the actual score you can get has a limit far below the maximum the game stores, and even below what's available on a "standard" score run path. Yes, it's been done the old way for 3 years, but cracking down on an unlimited repeatable procedure is understandable. There have been grudges about the switch-scalping method scattered throughout the site's history.
This level could be seen a bit differently from the case of "going infinite," as the resources you build up are depleted at some point, even if (in one version) that's only for a few seconds at the boss fight. The fact that you have some control over how many of those seconds get depleted could bring up mike's "is there still something to compete over?" test. In this case, there is, even if it makes for the dullest "competition" anywhere on the site, possibly rivaled only by reentering Knuckles stages until you get the right layout.
A two-screenshot method of showing the time here, with level complete (99:14.11) combined with level select (18:14.11), could be workable for Dreamcast, even though it doesn't technically prove that the two stats shown are from the same run (but the odds of different runs are 1-in-3600).
One thought: Does the train ride cutscene make all items and enemies reappear, as with entering the castle multiple times in Amy's Twinkle Park? If so, does that continue to hold true even when the train ride is completed immediately by virtue of having already done it? This could mean that GameCube players would still have the potential to "go infinite" in this case.
In conclusion, Sonic Team needs a good whipping with a stick.
F-Man:
--- Quote from: SadisticMystic on November 14, 2006, 12:01:07 pm ---One thought: Does the train ride cutscene make all items and enemies reappear, as with entering the castle multiple times in Amy's Twinkle Park? If so, does that continue to hold true even when the train ride is completed immediately by virtue of having already done it? This could mean that GameCube players would still have the potential to "go infinite" in this case.
--- End quote ---
Nah, they don't respawn.
Also, I just spent two hours trying to TA the stage according to the new rule (far longer than it would've take me the older way). I decided to give up as this was way too hard, I died all the time trying to aim the most enemies possible at different places.
Of course, that's just my own sucking, so here is a real reason why the rule ultimately fails: not shooting a switch more than once is the hardest thing you could ask us to do in time attacking this game. In all my attempt, I shot a certain switch more than once accidently, but tried to keep going just to see what time I would get (and failed).
And that was just in the first two times I was going around the level. Going from memory, there are approximately 9 checkpoints in the stage. Those familiar with Gamma time attacking know that you should restart after killing every enemy for each checkpoint, meaning you have to go around the level about ten times.
I'm sorry, but there is no way I'm ever going to try doing this without shooting a switch more than once, and I am sure most times, and probably all who used the checkpoints, have shot at least one switches more than once.
Here are the different ways it has accidently happened to me:
1. Second switch, shot while breaking the wall before it.
2. Third switch, shot almost every time because it is inside a block you need to blow up. Not shooting that switch is a real challenge in itself.
3. Fourth switch, shot at the same time I was shotting the dozen of Kikis around it.
Just shooting each of them once while going around the level once is easy, but trying not to do it again in the 30 minutes or so you TA the stage, and 10 times you go around it, is downright impossible. That, or you need to be a) a real expert, way better than me, with infinite patience, or b) pay extreme attention at the 2nd or 3rd switch, and not shoot Kikis to close to the 4th one, but what kind of newbie would do all that? Heck, even the idea of me trying that, after passing 2 hours testing the stage not caring if I accidently shot a switch twice repulses me.
I'll say it again, the decision was taken way too quickly, without enough input and especially testing. And also, out of all the decisions we could do, this was the worst one in my opinion.
Groudon:
I'm pretty sure there's a little leeway in the rule, like you can shoot a switch more than once, as long as you don't overdo it. In my 9:06 run, I shot the 3rd switch a couple times, since the crane didn't pick Gamma up right away. But I didn't shoot it like 5,000 times or anything.
F-Man:
--- Quote from: Groudon on November 14, 2006, 05:03:50 pm ---I'm pretty sure there's a little leeway in the rule, like you can shoot a switch more than once, as long as you don't overdo it. In my 9:06 run, I shot the 3rd switch a couple times, since the crane didn't pick Gamma up right away. But I didn't shoot it like 5,000 times or anything.
--- End quote ---
I rest my case.
X-5:
About all this checkpoint abuse stuff, I don't remember EXACTLY how I got my 9:25 but I do recall going through the stage once, doing the time stop glitch and killing everything again and then killing the boss. I thought this was how you got 99 minutes(at the time I didn't know shooting the switch gave 1 second, and I thought you got 99 minutes by doing the glitch over and over)
Maybe it's possible to abuse more checkpoints for more time which would get old, I forget how the stage works nowadays because I only ever tried for like 10 minutes once I learned about the time stop glitch.
I don't even think the switches besides the lift thing give any time, but I could be wrong- but if i'm not then it obviously wouldn't hurt a damn thing to shoot it again.
But now that I think about it, maybe just a legit playthrough with no time stop would have been the best choice?
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