[Spinballwizard]

Let's look at the mainstream "popular" games for a second. Seemingly deteriorating quality (with respect to storyline evilness especially) as we get towards the end. Let's analyze this, shall we? (Note: No Advance games due to relative lack of Storyline. No Rush because it's relatively good.)

GAME .. |MAIN ENEMY |ROBOTNIK'S NAME|#PLAYABLE CHARACTERS
Sonic 1 |Robotnik . |Robotnik ..... |1
Sonic 2 |Robotnik . |Robotnik ..... |1*
S3K ... |Robotnik . |Robotnik ..... |3
S3DB** .|Robotnik . |Robotnik ..... |1
SA(DX) .|Robotnik . |Robotnik*** .. |6
SA2(B) .|Special^ . |Eggman ....... |6^^
Heroes .|Metal Sonic|Eggman ....... |12^^^
Shadow .|Black Doom |Eggman ....... |1
Riders .|Babylon .. |Eggman ....... |6^^

* Additional character with Lock-On. Tails doesn't count due to identical functionality.

** Note: Limited enemies part of poorer quality

*** Called "Eggman" by all playable characters (Unsure about Big, but he's dumb.) but E-102

^ Differs based on story. Occasionally GUN, Robotnik, Heroes, Gerald.

^^ More outside story mode.

^^^ 4 Teams, 12 characters among them.

---

Take a look at things during/after SA(DX).
1. He's no longer "Dr. Robotnik" but "Dr. Eggman"
2. Generally more new characters that generally aren't needed (Read: Big, Cream, Babylon, possibly more)
3. Robotnik's no longer the main enemy in most games and has lost his apparent evilness. He often allies with you in the end. It recovered somewhat in Riders but could be improved.
4. Since the apparent name change, enemies have become much more generic-looking and in many cases (I'm looking at you Eggbots) pathetically designed.

Connection? I do think so.

Obviously this means we need to make him more evil, less prone to side-switching, and better at designing enemies. Let's return to those Buzz Bombers. :(

Oh yeah, and the general ditching of this "Eggman." I want Robotnik back (as a name) dammit.

Discuss.

[yse]

Obviously this means we need to make him more evil, less prone to side-switching, and better at designing enemies. Let's return to those Buzz Bombers. :(

Robotnik is probably the most poorly managed video game character I can think of. Firstly they change his name after we've all known him as Robotnik for the past ten years (don't start on the Japan/US debate). Secondly, he seems to have developed the "support the winning team" attitude. In other words, when his latest creation gets out of control (read: Chaos, Biolizard, Metal Madness, G-mel...) he switches to Sonic's side.

I'm more inclined to call Shadow a villain than "Eggman" at this point in time. :(

Oh yeah, and the general ditching of this "Eggman." I want Robotnik back (as a name) dammit.

[snapback]10664[/snapback]

Word.

Problem is they've probably gone too far to go back on it now. :(

And doesn't this belong in Deep Thoughts?

[Spinballwizard]

I debated about putting it there.

But then I wondered if that was for more nonSonic things.

If you think it's better there, then by all means move it. I don't have mods so I can't. >_>

[CosmicFalcon]

The name Eggman is almost as old as Sonic 1. Saying that that name is a cause for bad enemy design is implying that the enemies are worse in the Japanese versions of all games where we had his name as Robotnik compared to Western versions. Which is a lame implication.

[F-Man]

The name Eggman is almost as old as Sonic 1. Saying that that name is a cause for bad enemy design is implying that the enemies are worse in the Japanese versions of all games where we had his name as Robotnik compared to Western versions. Which is a lame implication.

[snapback]10695[/snapback]

Yes, the name argument is the dumbest one. Everything else is right, but you can't blame Sonic Team/SEGA because they decided to stop all of the stupid story differences that were introduced in the American versions of the games. I mean, they were on a completely different planet for god's sake.

[Aitamen]

Dr. Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik...

planet mobius has the best info on him so far, IMNSHO... if you haven't checked them out (such as not knowing who Ray is), I reccomend them... it's a good show of what "official" stuff for him is

further, do we count the comics, or the games?

[CosmicFalcon]

Dr. Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik...

planet mobius has the best info on him so far, IMNSHO... if you haven't checked them out (such as not knowing who Ray is), I reccomend them... it's a good show of what "official" stuff for him is

further, do we count the comics, or the games?

[snapback]11007[/snapback]

...

If this was like a GameFAQs Sonic game board, you'd be all set to be exploded by the various vets right about now.

I basically go for a 'keep the games and comics and cartoons separate' take. If it's made by someone else, it's a different continuity. Or should be. I.e. Before you say it, Eggman being called Robotnik in the Archie comics is not a reason for how that 'should' be his real name, and don't even bring out the StC Eggman origin story.

[Aitamen]

No, I wasn't saying that because in the comics he's 'botnik.  I was just asking if we're including that, because it brought up more points... obviously, the answer is no (which is good)

cmiiw, but the manual calls him Dr. Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik, doesn't it?

[booo95]

I actually think eggman is okay. I still call him robotnik though. And actually he has always been evil. When people betray him then he trys to destroy them. But he is never really on sonic's side. The thing I don't like about new sonic games is that they don't take place on mobius. I want to be running around on mobius in the metropilis factory from sonic2, homing attacking robotic crabs. The only sonic 3d game that I even come close to doing that is sonic adventure cause that's the only 3d sonic game with badniks in it.

[buddychaos0415]

^ Sonic games never took place on Mobius. They always took place on Earth. But yeah, Badniks>Egg Pawns.

And there were badniks in SA2B.

[CosmicFalcon]

cmiiw, but the manual calls him Dr. Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik, doesn't it?

[snapback]11056[/snapback]

Manuals from Sonic Adventure onward tend to (but not always). See, I guess someone at Sega or Sonic Team decided that having international variation was lame (which it kinda is), so they merged the Western name (Dr. Ivo Robotnik) with the Japanese name (Dr. Eggman). I don't know if they did the same to the Japanese versions of modern games.

Thinking about it, it would not surprise me if the choice to use the Eggman name in Western versions of the game came about because of the introduction of lyrical character themes... Wait, in Adventure, Eggman's is instrumental isn't it... *shrug*

[booo95]

^ Sonic games never took place on Mobius. They always took place on Earth. But yeah, Badniks>Egg Pawns.

And there were badniks in SA2B.

[snapback]11085[/snapback]

Badniks weren't in sa2. Those robots were made by gun. Also sonic 1 and 2 took place on mobius. Here's where each sonic game took place.

sonic1=mobius
sonic2=mobius
sonic3=angel/floating island
sonic chaos=mobius
sonic triple trouble= floating island I think
sonic cd=mobius
sonic adventure=earth
sonic adventure2=earth
sonic heroes= earth
shadow=earth

I know that's not every one but oh well.

[F-Man]

^ Sonic games never took place on Mobius. They always took place on Earth. But yeah, Badniks>Egg Pawns.

And there were badniks in SA2B.

[snapback]11085[/snapback]

Badniks weren't in sa2. Those robots were made by gun. Also sonic 1 and 2 took place on mobius. Here's where each sonic game took place.

sonic1=mobius
sonic2=mobius
sonic3=angel/floating island
sonic chaos=mobius
sonic triple trouble= floating island I think
sonic cd=mobius
sonic adventure=earth
sonic adventure2=earth
sonic heroes= earth
shadow=earth

I know that's not every one but oh well.

[snapback]11099[/snapback]

buddychaos was right, you're not. Badniks are in every SA2 level related to Eggman (like his base in the pyramid and around it). And if you paid a bit of attention you'd know that Sonic games have always been on Earth. Mobius = Sega of America crap that's been cancelled.

[Bilan]

buddychaos was right, you're not. Badniks are in every SA2 level related to Eggman (like his base in the pyramid and around it). And if you paid a bit of attention you'd know that Sonic games have always been on Earth. Mobius = Sega of America crap that's been cancelled.

[snapback]11100[/snapback]

I dont think Sand Ocean has any badniks, and thats related to Ol' Eggy and his Pyramid Base :(

EDIT: Actually it'd be kinad retarded for Eggy to be attacked by his own badniks. Point still stands though :P

[F-Man]

buddychaos was right, you're not. Badniks are in every SA2 level related to Eggman (like his base in the pyramid and around it). And if you paid a bit of attention you'd know that Sonic games have always been on Earth. Mobius = Sega of America crap that's been cancelled.

[snapback]11100[/snapback]

I dont think Sand Ocean has any badniks, and thats related to Ol' Eggy and his Pyramid Base :(

EDIT: Actually it'd be kinad retarded for Eggy to be attacked by his own badniks. Point still stands though :P

[snapback]11112[/snapback]

Not to mention that he wasn't established yet (IIRC) so the same goes for his badniks.

Just do as if I didn't say "every". >_>

[Bilan]

He wasnt established say what now?

His base was already there at that point in the story if thats what you meant, he was returning to it :/

[F-Man]

ooh, then just take your point, as well as my notion to forget I said "every". :P

[Bilan]

Huzzah! RPG-68 20-The World

[Chaos Vegeto]

The aspect of the older(During the glory days of Sonic and exception of many old game i.e. Sonic 1) Sonic Games that you never find in the newer sonic games is that you just have to either use Super Sonic in a true Final Battle(SA1/DX,SA2/Battle,SH don't include Shadow the Hedgehog. You do not play as Sonic and he appeared in SA2) or in a Race(Sonic Riders). In the older games if you had the 7 Chaos Emeralds+50 rings, you could become Super Sonic or Super Knuckles(Hasn't appeared again yet) and in S3&K if you had the 7 Super Emeralds+50 rings you could become Hyper Sonic, Super Tails, or Hyper Knuckles(I wonder if they will ever bring these three forms back, because I would like to see them in the Next-Gen of Sonic games that go back to the Series' roots). This very fact really dissapoints me and when I played Sonic 2 again I wondered why did they ever make that move in the first place.

[PsyBorg]

Stop bumping topics plz.


Please. Or we'll b&hammer you once and for all. Don't blame your little brother either.

[Aere Alouette]

You can use mine when and if the time comes:



......errrrrrr. I'm working on a better one, but this one has a leather grip.

[eggFL]

I see this topic is necro'd but I gotta throw this out there:

Sonic is better than it has ever been. It's great, damnit. The games are great, so are the stories and  characters. l33t uptight anti-fans may hate it because they're obligated to hate any changes to a franchise. They auto-hate new characters. They rag on every minor flaw in the 3D games and breath down the franchise's neck expecting god from it. It's hip to brand a franchise for jumping the shark just for growing, so they jump on every reason to hate it, digging up the most superficial reasons possible. (case in point: the topic starter) The gameplay in the new games (starting with SA2 especially) really give the classics a run for their money and has remained hella fun since.

Sonic Adventure enriched and officialized the Sonic world. Sonic and characters were given personality and actually interacted with each other. Characters like Big provided comic relief and showed that not everyone was a superhero. Eggman's designs began to be more slick and original. Everything about it was fresh and stylish. But since it's different from having no story/dialogue and as few characters as possible, people will obviously hate it, because that's the hip thing to do.

and as for Robotnik vs. Eggman: As you may know, his original name was Eggman. He was changed to Robotnik in USA (and maybe other markets) because of localization. It was a time when nobody was supposed to know the differences between japanese and american versions of games, or even know what Japan was. ;| Robotnik 'made more sense' than Eggman since he built robots, showing westerners' unsatiable need to be as boring and literal as possible. Of course, things are different today. They used the Sonic Adventure excuse to ease the audience into the name Eggman, which of course is his original name, and then Sonic Adventure 2 to officialize the name Robotnik as well. This is just like Final Fantasy series being renumbered in the USA to coincide with the complete, Japanese library of Final Fantasy games. It has nothing to do with deterioration of quality, it's actually the opposite. It's a sign of popularity of the franchise and the industry, and professionalism on the part of the producers.

[magnum12]

You can use mine when and if the time comes:



......errrrrrr. I'm working on a better one, but this one has a leather grip.

You can use one of my designs for the ban hammer if you like. It's sort of like yours but designed for two handed use, has spikes on the business ends, has the phrase, "Asta La vista, n00bie" engraved on the shaft, and it's primary colors are silver, gold, and blue. Of course it has a leather grip for maximum coolness. (All hammers should have the leather grip.)

[Crowbar]

Stuff

Um, no.

A critically bad game-engine and uninspired level design are not "minor flaws in the 3D games".

People don't complain because new characters get introduced. People complain because new characters get introduced arbitrarily and excessively and they're bad characters.

I'd like to hear some justification for how "The gameplay in the new games...really give the classics a run for their money".

Adventure---> may have enriched the world and characters somewhat but only to the shallowest extent Sega thought they could get away with. We still don't really know much about any of the characters' personalities beyond what we're told in the manuals (which isn't much): Sonic's a free spirit, Tails tries to escape Sonic's shadow, Knuckles is hot-headed and gullible, Amy <3 Sonic etc. Those are some shallow fucking characters right there.

I want to give special mention to Knuckles because he's had no reason to be in any game after SA2 , and that was hella sketchy. Why's he there in Heroes, for example? He left the island he's spent his entire life guarding to go on some "adventure", that doesn't really concern him at all, with Sonic (whom he isn't supposed to approve of particularly)? Sure you could make arguments for his coming along, but Sega made no goddamn effort to give even just a lame excuse. His appearance in Rush was even worse and made me want to cry (as much as I adore the game otherwise).

Sega have no fucking clue how to write characters. Gamma was good, Blaze was decent, but that's it. Maybe Shadow got something decent out of his game but I haven't played it.

And I can't believe you thought SBW was totally serious with the whole Robotnik/Eggman thing.:/

There's also the fact that you started ranting on here even though nobody in this thread was really complaining in any serious fashion about the 3D games.

[eggFL]

'critically bad game-engine and uninspired level design' .. Actually, I was referring to camera and contact problems, which I don't notice or aren't bothered by. The levels in Adventure 2 and Heroes are excellent imo, I think you can only really make a case for Shadow. But it's ok because it's Shadow.

Knuckles is said to be jealous of Sonic's way of life, and that he wants to be like him too. This is probably why he left the island and also why he follows Sonic around. Sonic and Knuckles have been friends for a while now so there's no reason they can't be on the same team. Knuckles used to be glued to Angel Island, but there are a lot of possible explanations as to why he doesn't have to guard the master emerald anymore.

In the old games, all we knew about the characters we knew from the manual. But in the new games, their described personalities actually come to life. Thanks to that, we know stuff about them that couldn't easily be put in a manual.

[Crowbar]

Knuckles is said to be jealous of Sonic's way of life, and that he wants to be like him too. This is probably why he left the island and also why he follows Sonic around. Sonic and Knuckles have been friends for a while now so there's no reason they can't be on the same team. Knuckles used to be glued to Angel Island, but there are a lot of possible explanations as to why he doesn't have to guard the master emerald anymore.

Tell me where in the games it is apparent that "Knuckles is jealous of Sonic's way of life". If it's shown in SAdv2/3 or Sonic Battle I'll concede, since those are other games I haven't played. If not, and you just pulled that from a manual description, you just pretty much proved my point for me.

[Shadow Wedge]

The levels in Adventure 2 and Heroes are excellent imo, I think you can only really make a case for Shadow. But it's ok because it's Shadow.

So, because the main character in the game is Shadow, we should put up with crappy level design? I don't like that logic. We should never have to put up with crappy level design. That's why I don't play Shadow anymore.
Unless, of course, you meant something else and I just misinterpreted it.

[eggFL]

Crowbar: I see what you mean, but on the other hand, we know a lot more about the characters from the games, stuff that the manuals don't tell us, and wouldn't tell us without being an essay. This is a step up from knowing practically nothing from the games and knowing more from the manual than actually playing.

Shadow Wedge: The levels in Shadow aren't as good, but that doesn't mean they are terrible. But still, to make up for it, Shadow has /more/ levels, has multiple missions per level, and adds guns and chaos control to the gameplay. That's a pretty sweet package if you ask me. The game may noy be an example of extreme quality, but that doesn't mark a decline in the franchise. If the game was Sonic Adventure 3 or next gen Sonic, I'd be worried. But it's not, it's a bonus release squeezed in at the end of this console generation. One that, in a sense, isn't even a Sonic game. I'm happy with it, personally.

[Crowbar]

Having more shit doesn't make the shit less shit...I'm not going to want to play crap levels more if there are more of them. Quite the opposite, in fact. And you think guns are a worthy addition...? I've heard absolutely nothing but how they're completely worthless.

And I really just don't think there's as much personality coming from the characters in-game as you think there is. Give me some examples.

[Shadow Wedge]

but that doesn't mean they are terrible

Except that I think that they are terrible. Now, I don't think that Shadow shows a decline in the Sonic franchise, but I do think that the level design in Shadow is so horrid, it overshadows (*cough*) the new gameplay mechanics of the guns. Actually, the guns were really good and well done and should definitely be in a sequel to Shadow, if one is made.

But still, to make up for it, Shadow has /more/ levels

More crap doesn't make the crap better.

has multiple missions per level

This could've used some work, but was done decently overall. I don't think it added to or detracted from the rest of the game.

Overall, I think that the level design was so bad I couldn't play the game, and no matter what else they added in (story, guns, etc.) I still won't play it. That said, I realise that most of this is my opinion, and can see that those who don't mind/like the level design would find it an enjoyable game, whereas a game that is bad for the franchise is one that sucks for everyone who plays it.